Parents: A question about what I consider to be bizarre by a foster parent
 

I got drug into a pro bono child custody case. Children have been placed in a temporary foster home (girl 11 y.o., boy 7 y.o.). I'm representing the natural mother...tough case but natural mom is getting screwed over royally by the system.

Anyways...I've just recieved a confirmed report that the foster mother duct taped brother and sister together for over an hour because they were fighting and arguing too much. Is that outta line in your opinion?

Seems so to me.

The foster mother should be in jail. I'm all for discipline but that's abusive.

Grotesque. I presume the natural mother is considered not fit as a parent. Why? That alone is a terrible trauma for the children. To follow that up with a foster mother acting like Dr Mengele is baroque. What great confidence and security those poor children will learn to feel for adult people..

Hell yes it's out of line.

Duct tape is outta line.

And that's coming from a stricter than average disciplinarian...

Unless I'm missing some very peculiar circumstances, duct taping a kid = outta line parenting.

we use cable ties

:D:D:D

Seriously though, what part of that story sounds like guardianship? At the very least, they should no longer be fostering children.

Maybe not jail- we throw that around so loosely...'just throw her in the slammer for a few days'- make her a non-productive member of society? Perhaps she isn't all bad, but just at the end of her rope with the kids. .


but yes, that's out of line to me. If she had to do that she should have just put her kids in two separate rooms and sit between them or something.

Eh...it happens...

Punishment cruel, unusual ... and so purely Packers
Rick Morrissey | In the wake of the news
January 18, 2008

We've all been there.

Your 7-year-old son won't wear the Packers jersey you would like him to wear, so you tape him to a chair and then tape the jersey to the kid.

Here in Chicago, we prefer rope and Super Glue, but that's a personal preference issue, and who are we to question your methods, O Friend Up North?

Your team is in a playoff game, the stakes are high and—this can't be overstated—everybody needs to be on board. Everybody. Even Junior, who doesn't seem to grasp the importance of the postseason. The fact that he doesn't is very discouraging. The age of awareness in humans is, what, 3? The kid should know who butters his bread, it being Wisconsin and all.

This unfortunate scenario is said to have presented itself to 36-year-old Matthew Kowald, of Pardeeville, Wis., who simply wanted to share his love of the Packers with his son. The game against the Seahawks would decide who would go to the NFC championship game. So Kowald, understanding the enormousness of the situation, allegedly taped the boy to the chair and the jersey to the boy. In return for his zealousness, Kowald was cited for disorderly conduct and jailed for two days.

Oh, sure, there have been cries of child abuse in the case, but as we in Chicago know, true child abuse would involve taping your kid to a chair and forcing him to watch the 2007 Bears.

And sure, there have been whispers that marital difficulties might have led the man to "act out," but what parent hasn't looked at a roll of duct tape and thought, "What if …?"

With her cell phone, the boy's mother snapped photos of the restrained child, and the pictures soon will be e-mailed to every Bears fan with the caption, "Another young, unaware Packers fan about to be transformed from 'Harold' into 'Helga' in secret indoctrination procedure; eventual mustache seen as a positive in Wisconsin."

Should a guy be crucified for caring? Should a man be criticized for loving too much? And doesn't love of team really signify love of country? Thus, not to tape up your kid is to say you would prefer living in North Korea, correct?

There are unique burdens and stresses that go with being a Wisconsinite. People don't understand this. Ever had your snowmobile die on you in a remote area during a blizzard and eventually been forced to eat Stan, your brother?

Me neither. But the point is, it's tough up there. And this surely is what Kowald was trying to teach his young son, who perhaps was worried about consumer spending growth or the rise in cases of acid reflux among the Navajo and needed his priorities laid out in front of him, even if that involved a restraining device, which in this case meant good old-fashioned tape.

(In Wisconsin, duct tape is not merely used to repair things or hold people down. It is also referred to as "the spring fashion line.")

Kowald's wife filed a restraining order against her husband Wednesday, and he is not allowed to have contact with his family, taped or otherwise. It's a sad case, obviously, one that makes you wonder whether the kid was the victim in a war between his parents. When the spawn becomes the pawn, it is never a good thing.

But the Packers part of the equation cannot be dismissed here. It's hard to picture a Jacksonville Jaguars fan getting this irate about his son's lack of commitment. In these parts, at least, it reinforces the idea that a certain amount of brainwashing is going on in Wisconsin. It might involve coercion. It might involve tape. But we're pretty sure these people have their ways.

Now we don't want to paint with too broad a brush, especially with Green Bay preparing to face the New York Giants in the NFC championship game Sunday, but if one Packers fan is willing to force his child to wear a team jersey, what might another be willing to do?

Call his home "The First Reformed Covenant Church of Brett" and file for tax-exempt status?

Go ahead and laugh. But the general manager of the Fox affiliate in Green Bay has pulled "Seinfeld" reruns from the schedule Saturday because Giants quarterback Eli Manning is a big fan of the show. He doesn't want Manning to feel comfortable the night before the big game. A special about the late Vince Lombardi likely will take its place.

So don't get mad at Kowald for being extremist when, in fact, he could be middle of the (county) road.

It's possible that, if he had just waited, he might have cooled down, and this unfortunate situation could have been avoided.

But Packers fans will tell you that some things are inevitable. They refer to waiting as a tape delay.

Out a line.

I might need to know more about the exact circumstances before passing judgement. Like, if she bound their entire bodies together for 3 hours and they were bawling and crying and fighting, then it seems outright horrible. If they were purposely being jackasses and she taped their legs together and told them to be quiet for an hour, I dunno... I can't necessarily go after her for that.

When I was a kid my brother and sister and I would literally terrorize babysitters. I could see them taping me to my brother until we calmed down.

I'm just saying that from the amount of data you've provided, this could range from justifiable and humourous (even to the kids) all the way to child abuse. I'd have to know more.

Hmmm....Since you're a lawyer, I'm guessing that you know the answer or how to quickly find it and are just being curious what posters here have to say. Eh?

I'm an attorney that has been a guardian ad litem and a foster parent. There is no way a foster parent is allowed to do that to any child in their custody. You have a duty to report the incident to your Division of Family Services. The children will be removed from that home.

Go get 'em Dueller!

Kind of like Sydney Poitier and Tony Curtis being handcuffed together in that movie ?

Basic message; You are stuck with each other. Get along.

Beautiful.

It depends on the nuances of the situation. What was the foster mother's intent? How were they duct taped together? Like intertwined cocoons, or at the wrist? Were they able to move about, or where they immobilized? Was the duct tape applied, tightly, or loosely? Was this a one-time occurrence, or not?

Now let's move on to the definition of "fighting too much". Is it a normal arguing, or a bazaar "I'm going to kill you" type argument that would lead a foster parent to extreme actions? After all these kids are in foster care. Why is that? Perhaps it's a miscarriage of justice. Perhaps the reason helps explain the current situation.


Bottom line...
1) Not enough information has been presented.
2) Don't enroll in law school.

Kurt...I've pm'd you. need a little professional and practical advice

jim

To answer a few questions:

They are pretty rambunctious kis. Boy is passive; girl is a chatterbox that goads things on. They were taped face to face and told to stand oin corner for an hour.

Darisc...this is a parenting fact question since I have only near grown stepchildren. Not really a legal question

Others...I don't really want to get into the details of the removal from natural mother's home at this juncture. Let me just say I think there is a personal vendetta going on within DFCS.

Every parent has wanted to duct tape their children to something but actually doing it is a different matter..

She needs to be removed from the business of child fostering if the story is true.

Sometimes they just won't listen...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1200704428.jpg

This is a crime (273(a) PC) in California. I am sure it is a crime in your state if it is proven. You have a duty and obligation to report this to the police and the Department of Children Services.

David

Dueller, to permanently remove a child from the custody of a parent, DCFS must have substantial evidence. I do not know the particulars of this case, but before you vigorously fight to restore custody to the biological mother, consider what the reasons were for the children's removal. Everyone has a sob story as to how they were railroaded by the system, but carefully weigh the facts as opposed to the opinions.

David

Yes, David, I know. I've practiced long enough to be extremely cynical/skeptical of sob stories. On this one the foster parent when questioned has admitted her unusual technique to one of the children's counselors. That's how I got the info.

This is a sexual abuse case the mother reported immediately to DFCS. The perp was someone DFCS CLEARED last year and refused to prosecute despite mother's efforts (I've read that file). Now DFCS has taken the children because the same perp is now accused again by mother and this time it appears there is substantial evidence. DFCS has removed child from mother for her failure to provide a safe environment after they cleared the same guy last year.

Capisce?

hmmmm

mother lost children ...
foster mother taped kids ... she's getting paid isn't she? What did she do prior to reprimand the children? Still, I think the foster mother was out of line due to professional negligence.

Isn't there some kind of training for foster parents? Or some kind of certification?

Extreme handling of kids from a parent's view. But what if you send them to their room? Put them out in the hallway (Japanese technique -- lock the kid out of the house). A spanking?

I think that child welfare is a bit trigger happy at times.Yes, I agree situations do exist that it is better for the child to step in.

But a foster parent should follow the guidelines.

As for the mother not being able to provide a safe environment. hmmm, what is she supposed to do? Move out of the state? (assumption being made that ex-BF is very persistent fella with "good" friends)

This topic is very deep.

It sounds like the DCFS has some explaining to do to the courts. I am very protective of children because in many cases, they are truly victims. I am sure you know the case and the details. I hope the judge who determines custody will make the best decision to protect the kids.

In the case last year, DFCS not only cleared the perp but made a writtten determination that the child had been coached. They determined that abuse had occurred while the child was in summer visitation in another city with natural father but that the alleged perp had no contact during the period when the abuse occurred. DFCs went so far to identify who they suspected BUT NEVER FOLLOWED UP ON THE INCIDENT OR TRANSFERRED THE INVESTIGATION to the jurisdiction where the father lived. Sadly all perps/alleged perps are family members of father.

I've gone ballistic on local DFCS's for not following thru on that investigation and clearing the perp last year. Perhaps too zealously because they seem to be very uncooperative with me right now.

DFCS got caught with their pants down. Don't want to admit anything that they didn't follow up properly.

Get em' Tiger!

Physco move if you ask me.
Poor kids, my heart goes out to them.

Mine too...

I just addressed a similar issue with the childrens service agency I work with. It wasnt as severe as taping kids face to face - we removed the kids from the home, terminated the couple as foster parents and placed the kids elsewhere.

Shouldnt' be any discussion or questions about it.

I hve heard of many cases where a mother calls the authoritys to protect her children, and the children are taken from her.

I don't know much about duct taping children, but my father used to spank me. Hard. I look at some of these kids today, and what they grow up to be and do, and I wonder if that was so wrong. I mean, the kids I grew up with, many are dead or in jail. My father made sure I was not one of them.

A lot of children today are like wild animals with no sense of limits. Take a look at the news.

Parenting was forced to change over the years.
However, society targetted was able to punish wrong doings but conveniently deceided to not retrain parents so that they would be able to parent in a "new" world.

When does parenting become a crimial offense?
Where is the line?

Duct tape can be damaging to skin, etc. so yes there is some concern.

On the other hand, my 2 (daughter 7 son 4) have been fighting so much lately that I made them spend the entire day yesterday together doing things... and now that I've seen this thread, the next time they are forced into quality time together, it may well be in just one of their rooms instead of the whole house and yard... but no duct tape.

She's binding the kids. She's binding them together which is torture. The next thing you'll hear, they're dead. BTK.

Get those kids out of there.

Wait a freakin' minute here...the abuse happened when the children were in the care of their Father but the kids are removed from their Mother? WTF is that all about. Daddy dear was responsible for their care at that time...how was Mother responsible for his failure? Jeez what a system!

The duct tape wasn't stuck to their skin, was it? Heck, when I was a kid, my mom used to hold me down and lick my nose. Talk about torture!!! But, not nearly as bad as getting kicked around the family room by my dad. Those were different times. But...I never spent a single minute in jail. Just grew up to become a productive professional adult. Who'd-a-thunk-it.

Didn't binding sorta work for those two gangsters in the M. Jackson "Beat It" video? They apparently came out of it okay (danced in unison over and over). However, I'm sure it had a profound effect on Michael.

Flash forward to 2002. See. I told you.

Sherwood

Had a hearing Tuesday. Foster mother claims it was a joke after the kids made up.:rolleyes: A few other issues came out.

Chilldren have been removed from this foster home.