Question for the Pilots
 

To resolve an argument with a coworker...

Let's say someone owns a single-engine GA-type aircraft. Can they just "hop in and go" like in a car? Or do they have to do fuel calculations taking distance and wind speed into account and plan fuel stops along their route?

Its possible "within reason" so to speak. You always do a pre-flight inspection on the aircraft and check oil and fuel... EVERY TIME, but the rest is left up to the PIC (pilot in command). I live in Arizona and about 90% of the time if its clear where I live, its clear in most of the state.

Wind and fuel are not an issue for the first 4 hours, then you need to look at both.

Joe

PS this is with my personal aircraft, not the one I fly for a living.

I have known pilots to do just that, but you are violating several FAR's. You as the pilot are responsible for the safe outcome of the flight and that includes making yourself as knowledgeable as possible about the planned route, fuel needed for the expected time in transit plus what is needed to reach alternates(if necessary),weather, destination details, notams(notices to airmen) covering the route and destinations, etc. The FAA is merciless on those pilots that have bad outcomes caused by lack of flight planning. If you are VFR and not transiting certain busy areas, you do not need a flight plan(although it only takes a few minutes to file one and then someone knows your route is something goes wrong-cheap insurance). Glenn

How long would it take to fly from Columbus to Peoria, IL.

I ask because the doctor I referenced in the Skymaster thread ran out of gas flying from Columbus to Peoria, and landed in Bloomington. To me, that was cutting it awfully close on fuel.

Technically the pilot is responsible for adequate preflight preparation and planning. IIRC the pertinent regulation reads "availing him/her self of all possible sources of information which pertain to the flight being planned". I forget the exact word-for-word (I'd have to look it up), but that's the jist of it. Based on that "letter of the law", it strongly implies that simply "hopping in and going" is discouraged, if not outright illegal. You'd have a helluva time standing up in court and justifying how you "availed yourself of all possible sources of information" if you "hopped in and went" and something happened, right?

That said, there's a real-world approach to flying that is not necessarily the same as the FAA's idealized version: if a pilot is comfortable with "hopping in and going", that's their business in MOST cases (there's a line past which it violates the "common sense" rule and it would be appropriate for a third party to intervene or say something, kind of like a friend at a bar having had "one too many").

If the pilot flies regularly, knows the airplane and the route, etc. it's normally understood by others that "they're the Pilot-In-Command, they're assuming the liability, it's their call". If I see someone getting ready to take off with full fuel and going somewhere very close by, and it's severe clear good weather for 1,000 miles in every direction, I'm unlikely to say anything if it looks like they're getting ready to "hop in and go". The presumption is that they know what they're doing - unless something looks out of place or it appears that they're about to do something very stupid.

If there is ever an incident though, you can bet that the NTSB (or FAA) will investigate into the extent of preflight planning done. If it ends up that it was a contributing factor, that person is probably looking at some "remedial training", a certificate suspension or both, not to mention civil liability.

In flying, as with most things, a certain amount of common sense needs to be exercised. It may not be appropriate to do two hours of preflight planning for an "over the hill", 15-minute flight from Santa Monica to Van Nuys in VFR conditions, but it's certainly not appropriate to do 5 minutes of preflight planning to do a four-hour, IFR flight from Santa Monica to Reno (for example). The latter example could even potentially qualify as a violation of FAR 91.13 ("careless and reckless operation"), a "catch-all" in the regulations. If I ever heard anyone bragging about doing such a thing, I'd have a few words with them for sure. Possibly even with a local FAA official.

Two truths I learned in aviation:

"That which is legal is not necessarily smart"
"That which is technically illegal is sometimes the smarter choice"

For such an exacting discipline, aviation does have a lot of "grey areas" at times - ones which experience and common sense are the governing principles.

With few exceptions, I always start any flight with a full bag of gas.

There have been times when I needed to take weight off the aircraft to get out of a confined area and traded in fuel, but that is rare.

I do mental fuel calcs enroute as well and establish a firm "bingo" fuel state when it is time to land at a divert field or, in my case, ship:cool:

Columbus, OH is about 400 miles from Peoria, IL and that is well within the range of a Skymaster. If you flight planned for cruise of 165 knots, that is a little over 2 hours. The Skymaster has at least 4 hours of range, as I recall, at 23 gallons per hour with standard fuel capacity of 92 or so gallons. Maybe there were severe headwinds or he took off without full fuel(maybe he was carrying a load and took golf clubs and people instead of fuel). Again, flight planning is the responsibility of the PIC.

He doesn't have a Skymaster (I was just referencing the thread that got me on this subject). He has something like a four-seater single-engine Cessna.

It depends.......

I often simply open the hangar door, drag the plane outside, do a quick preflight (more or less... check the fuel, oil and tires), look up at the sky, hop in and buzz around the patch.

Now if I am actually going somewhere of any distance, I will call for a weather briefing, check notams etc and will cross check that info with weather on my phone and or computer.

My preflight can vary at times also as I keep my airplane at home in my locked hangar, but if I fly someone elses airplane or leave mine parked unattended, my pre-flight will always be more intensive.

For this type of flight,

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1200927018.jpg

pretty much just "kick the tire, light the fire" :D

(even in my situation above however, I ALWAYS do a thorough check of controls, fuel and ignition prior to pushing the go lever ;))

The accident reports section in Flying magazine is full of pilots who "thought" they had enough fuel to make their destination. As in, they didn't bother to check.

A couple of those old "aviation aphorisms" come to mind:

"An airplane will fly a little bit over gross weight, but it sure won't fly without gas"

"Three most useless things in aviation: Altitude above you, runway behind you and air in the tanks"

Also, "what's the first thing a guy does after declaring an emergency and landing in an empty field 'off airport' due to fuel starvation"? Answer: "switches the fuel selector onto the tank with fuel in it".

I haven't flown GA in a long time but from what I hear it's pretty important to check on the random temporary restricted airspace that seems to pop up these days.

The bright side of running out of fuel is the fire tends to be smaller.

"The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire. . ."

:D Or maybe coming to the end of a 2000' grass strip in a Grumman Yankee on a hot humid day with a heavy friend in the right seat ;):D Turns you into a full flap dropping religious man in an instant! :D

Note to newbie pilots who want to buy their first airplane a couple hours after obtaining their private ticket in C-150's: Avoid Grumman Yankees if you intend to operate off of short grass strips ;) (I and my Grumman lived to tell about it but others may not be so LUCKY ;))

I started flying the Oakland to Honolulu route right about the time the Magnun P.I. series started. No alternates, one of the longest overwater city pairs at the time, especially as we were in a twin. Got lots of respect from the DC8 and 747 types on the ramp in HNL.

3 times a week. In a Gulfstream 2. It was a 4.5 hour airplane with 45 minutes reserve (if you did everything perfectly in an imperfect world). It was a 5 hour flight westbound in the summer and more in the winter.

The math worked out that 69 knots of headwind was the bingo number. Never had any trouble remembering that one. The wind numbers in those days (pre-Boeing 99%) were reported winds. Meaning last guy out there reported. If you were first one off the deck in the morning westbound, you were pathfinding. You got good with fuel flow vs. position, and were really good with predicting how close the Pacific High was to your track by where the jet stream shifted north enroute. All done with a eyeballs, pencil, paper and testicular fortitude. We did everything possible to get every single gallon in the airplane (fuelled nose-low, bribed the fueler to fill the truck the night before and park it out in the breeze to cool the fuel, bought monthly liquid gifts for the controllers in Fremont that handled our departures, made visits with fresh flown in leis to the Oakland HF radio operators over in Hayward when we could). All to expedite that turn onto the tracks ASAP and as rapid a climb as possible out of Oakland. When it was dicey, we'd play the 'destination game'.... File for Maui (shorter leg by 30 minutes) and 'divert' to HNL if we had enough left. Even fly to Monterey and depart from there to Maui (another 30 minutes shorter) when necessary.

As the Gulfstream matured, we got the G2B, G3, and finally the G4. With it, you could leave west coast with less than full tanks, no worries. That was such a strange feeling after struggling for so many years needing every single ounce. The young guys flying this spectacular equiptment now have NO idea how good they have it.

I recently retired after 37 years, and 25000+ hours of accident and violation free flying. Am writing a lot of what happened in that time, and will incorporate some of those stories (some seen here for the first time over the years) into a book, if not for publication, for my nephews and neices who never got see much of me over the years.

My hats off to you, sir. For one, I can certainly appreciate the guts that must've taken.

I remember "trading war stories" with guys who moved on from our little freightdog outfit into regionals and it always stunned me how quickly these guys got spoiled with their glass cockpits and GPS-es and stuff and forgot where they'd come from (flying decrepit freighters with often "inop" equipment into dumpy little airports in the middle of nowhere down to minimums, often with icing conditions and other stuff to contend with).

I wonder how many pilots today can fly an NDB approach down to minimums without staining their shorts. Ahh, that was flying. :)

But you also have about 8X the number of hours I do, and succeeded in making a career out of it where I didn't. Good on you - I'd love to hear your stories sometime. And yes, put me down for a copy of your book.

I was in a club with 2 planes years back and would always really check them over prior to flight, many times things had to be fixed on the spot, but with my own plane which I built and know inside and out, if the fuel and oil is good, go for it. There is really no reason to ever run out of fuel. If for some reason I really got in a pinch I would just drop it in a good field (next to a house) and see if someone had a gas can and give me a ride to the local station..

Craig, your plane ran on pump gas?

Anything from 80 to 100

It's an old cliche' but the three most unuseful things in aviation are fuel in the truck, runway behind you and altitude above you.

I can fly fast and low, but it's mission dependent. I can fly to min on an NDB, land in the dirt w/ NVG and have landed on a flattop I've never seen. But Uncle Sugar has made me do it.

In general aviation I'd use the three rules, plus check wx, alternate routes, etc...without hesitation EVERY time, unless I were only flying around the patch doing T&G in the weather I could see with my own two eyes.

+1 for my Piper Pacer (autofuel STC) and my Minimax (Rotax 2-stroke). I have a local farm fuel service deliver NON ethanol containing car gas to me on a regular basis. It typically costs 25 cents a gallon or so more than the going price at the gas station, but it is convenient and it is much cheaper than filling up at the local airport. I have put around 500 hrs on my Pacer since I have owned it and compression at every annual has remained in the high 70's.

The plane I am building will have a Lycoming io-360 (200hp) on it and due to the higher compression, I will have to start buying AV gas again.....not looking forward to that. I nearly go into shock everytime I go on a long trip and have to fill up at an airport. :D

can relate to fing...used to get a middle-of-the-night trip from tampa twice a month to leave tampa, fly to san juan, pick up a pair of guys and their heavy luggage, then fly non-stop in the winter to newark or teterboro across the bermuda triangle in a lear-35. when you took off, during climbout the fms would always predict a landing with 'negative fuel', then as you reached cruise, the numbers would gradually climb into the positive. so, you'd experiment with different winds, trying to decide to sacrifice rate of fuel burn for higher groundspeeds. as you sat there for hours over black water, you'd watch the groundspeed slowly decreasing, predicted landing fuel weight decreasing as well. it was a pain in the ass. we had a lear-36xr that could easily do the trip without any risk of not making destination. anyway, you always had an out..you could land in north carolina, or philly, but then you'd have to arrange ground transportation for your passengers to new york from there (company hated to see and no tip..lol). foryunately, i always managed to squeeze in, but i never enjoyed it. also, since our lear-36xr was not rvsm-certified, returning from western europe in the lower flight levels in winter, bucking 100+ knot headwinds meant deciding on whether to continue to gander, nova scotia or landing in iceland. you'd think these 'calls' would always be easy, but sometimes the decision would be so close and there was always a certain pressure to complete the planned flight. i made good decisions..i'm still here.

fwiw, i quit flying part 135 learjet freight, charter and air ambo to return to general aviation. i've been back being a full-time general aviation flight instructor for about a year..after having done it from 10-15 years ago roughly. i traded income for quality of life. i'm home every night now after years of being away for 1-3 weeks at a time on a regular basis..life on a pager where everything was unscheduled - when that thing 'rang', it meant be at the airport in 15'..and be ready to be wheels-up in 45'. the lifestyle sucked..but i do miss the lear.

if some idiot high-net worth individual would ever buy an old 20-series learjet (nobody with any sense would - they're turbojets and burn roughly 30% more fuel than the later turbofans so not very practical, but damn they're funnnn! and tough - eight spars per wing)..anyway, i'd probably quit instructing to going back to pic on one of those. joe, i think you used to slog freight around in these , too? maybe about a decade before me? i started around the mid-90's in them. haven't flown one in several years..would kick my ass initially, i'm sure. i couldfly 'em 'in the day', though. :)

In a jet (well the larger and more modern jets) you rarely "top off" the tanks on shorter trips. In a larger jet you can carry large amounts of fuel, and if you are going shorter distances it just doesn't make sense to carry all the extra weight. If you were flying 400 miles in a Lear 60, it would take less than an hour, but if you topped the tanks off you would be carrying an extra 5,500 pounds of fuel. This means you would be using more fuel, just to carry the weight of the extra fuel. Not very efficient. As bigchillcar and some others are pointing out, for a good portion of a long flight (sometimes over half) you technically do not have enough fuel to make it to your destination. Then as you burn fuel off, you get lighter and it takes less power for the same speed and you "make fuel". Our "box" says we'll run out of gas about halfway to our destination, then we usually end up landing at our destination with an extra 1 hr or more of fuel. At altitude winds and temperature plays an extremely important role. 1 or 2 degrees of change is noticeable in performance at altitude. At lower altitudes we burn about 4000 pounds an our or more. At altitude it's more like 1200. I've never flown a 20 series like bigchillcar, but I've heard they burned as much fuel idling on the ground than they did at cruise! Maybe bigchillcar can set us straight on that.

a 20-series lear at gross will pull hard all the way up to fl410..the bypass-engine turbofan versions, like the lear-35 couldn't make it to the top at gross weight.

20-series lear in cruise will see around 1,500 lbs/hr....but boy, did a few vfr ferry permit flights below fl180 with burn rates near 3,000 lbs./hr! at idle?? a 20-series is burning a little more than 2,000 lbs./hr...so you're right..they burn less at cruise than at idle.

Me: Type rated in the B727 and 747 Classic. Significant time in both as a Captain.

YES, you can just hop in your personal airplane and go.

-The best flight I have ever done was when I took the other in my 928 down to the Florida keys. We rode US-1 down to Marathon, where we passed the airport.

"I bet this is a beautiful place from the air" she said.

That was all it took. Tire-smoking seconds later, my German small-block V8 was rumbling in the parking lot of the FBO in Marathon. I took her on two flights- one while I was being "checked out to rent", and the other on a one hour trip from Marathon down to Key West and back. It was beautiful, and we still talk about it!

The best thing you can ever do is take your girl flying. I'm not going to go into any detail about how good the sex was that night....

N!

Some guys i fly with now used to fly the L20, and I cant think of ONE of those guys who didnt have a near death experience due to some sort malfunction or more like a nuance of that plane.

Here's a technical specification that you should memorize:

PA-28-161.

That is the Piper Cherokee Warrior powered by the 160 hp 0-320. This airplane will treat you well, and it won't disapoint you. And every flight instructor in existance is checked out in this airplane!

N!

+1.

The variations on that platform are all pretty good - the Cherokee 180 (PA28-181), the Arrow (retractable, complex), Seminole (multi-engine), etc. All very good, solid airplanes. My original solo was in a PA28-161. I have a soft spot in my heart for them. Very good, solid, stable platforms.

Cessna makes a good airplane too, but I've just always liked the Piper design a bit better. Low-wings just LOOK more like airplanes, IMHO.

For local pleasure flights, I often don't decide which way I'm going to fly until taxiing out to the runway. The guy in the control tower wants to know which way I'll be departing, so I better decide before taking off.

My airplane carries well over four hours of fuel. I'll probably be back in an hour or two.

But the pre-flight inspection is just as thorough as when I'm going to cross the Rocky Mountains.

count me in with that company..

that's the plane i'd always wanted to fly..the 'classic' 747..had several models of them as a kid and still have every 'airport movie' on old vhs.. :D i just really loved it..never got a chance to fly one of course.

and you're right about the warrior..i spend a great deal of time each week giving instrument instruction/ipc's in warriors/cherokees/arrows. they're my favorite 'trainer platform' for doing instrument training. :) although it would be nice to fly 'just one' with decent gyros and radios.. :mad:

You have not lived until you have shot an NDB approach to a runway in Russia at night in a thunderstorm, flying the approach in solid IFR while converting meters to feet, hectopascals to inches and listening to the frigging nicotene stained Russian navigator in the jumpseat ***** and gripe the whole way down to the ground...

We just brought the bird back to CONUS and both of us smiled when we first heard an American voice on the radio approaching "feet dry" in point.... you guys flying over here have it very good.

Flew flight test for the factory for a while. Happened every week and the early 20 series birds could be a handful. I flew one of the first (sn 009, now in the Pima Air Museum) and they were fun but still could bite you it not handled right.

Any airplane can bite you if not treated right, but they are far safer than women...

joe! i have several hundred hours in lr-23-009! i flew it at kalitta, but it was then sold to bobby younkin who used it in his airshow routine. you may recall him - he was killed in a mid-air during an airshow in canada with his best friend in the other plane..the family witnessed the whole thing from the ground. he was flying his waco bi-plane 'samson' at the time, though. bobby lived in springdale, arkansas and #9 wound up in the fayetteville, arkansas air museum. in fact, the picture of it that he had of it painted in red and black is the learjet i chose for my business card. i'll see if i have a copy of it i can print.

as for ndb's...i still teach them every week. the students that i work with still fly old aircraft with really old radio stacks, so they're still there. in fact, i haven't had an opportunity to shoot a single gos approach all year! one of the guys has an old bendix 'manual tune' ndb that must be 40+ years old. ndb's are my fave..after the basic aircraft control by instrument reference is learned, i begin with them. if they can track ndb bearings, vor and ils orientation is a breeze...usually.. :rolleyes:

again, joe are you sure it was serial #9 you flew? i flew many hours in #9 and also #16. it's my understanding that there may be only one or two still flying older than #9..perhaps it was one of those?

Oops, it was serial number 15 that's in Pima. I flew this bird with Louise Timken, of Timken bearings. Friend of Amelia Erhart and the first woman typed in a Lear, she was a hoot to fly with. Learjet wanted a experienced captain to fly with her and I was the only one crazy enough to do it, so I got the nod! She was in her 80's when I flew with her and it was fun to watch but she did everything fine, just needed lots of help in case there was an emergency. Loads of fun...

http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?regsearch=N88B&distinct_entry=true

Incidently, the movie "Air Force One" was filmed using N704CK, a Kalitta Air airplane that I've flown around the world.

The "whale" is a great airplane to fly. I've learned that the bigger they are, the easier they are to fly, and the 747 flies great. It is easy if you are used to transport-catagory jets' decent profiles. You have to be careful with this airplane: Despite appearances, it is EVERY bit as maneuverable as a 727 or a Piper Seminole. The problem: There are four 13,000 pound engine/pylon assemblies on that wing, and if you really rack it over hard...you can actually throw one of them off. It is a little hard to land smooth, since there are four main gear trucks. It has one big vice however: It uses runway like you won't believe! Holy *****! My first takeoff in this thing was from rwy 32 up in Anchorage, and when we reached rotation speed...there was literally NO runway remaining! Same thing when landing. You land, you let the autobrakes do their thing...and the plane just goes on down the runway. "Hell-o! Wow...those red lights are coming up quick!" After you finally stop, you look back at the flight engineers' panel, and you can litterally watch the brake temperature gauges climb into the yellow and red bands...

If I were going to buy a light airplane, I'd buy either a Warrior or one of the Hershey-bar wing Cherokees. They fly nice, and feel MUCH more solid than the Cessna 152 or 172. You're right though- finding an IFR PA-28 that has been maintained properly isn't that easy.

N

wow, joe! cool story! flying an early lear with an 80-year old woman. good for you..bet she had a blast. what a privilege..i would've done it, too.

bet you and i would have had fun together flying an early lear..god i miss them. it's been so long now that when i walk up to the big lear cockpit poster on my wall and look at the switches and buttons..i have difficulty remembering what did what. :( you ever get a chance to 'ferry one' for some reason and are current, holler at me..i'm several years out of currency, but i'm sure i could handle being an sic again..daddy! ;) 'ol ryan will easily defer to your currency and experience.

normy..how interesting! thanks for the insight into the airplane. i think there may be a dvd you can buy from sportys that takes you on a 'real flight' in one, but i could be wrong. i'd love to have it if it exists. i was born a few years too late. actually, just turned 42 today.

yeah, show me almost any piper warrior or cherokee tied down at most fbo's and i'll show you a single-axis a/p that doesn't work, a dg that precesses, compass that hasn't been swung in a decade..and radios? don't get me started down that path.. ;)