How many engineers?
 

So this semester along with my other classes, i'm in an ME senior seminar class. It's a 1 credit course that meets once a week for one hour to listen to engineers in the field give lectures and also get general guidance as to our direction after we graduate. Now i have this class on fridays, and have had all weekend including holiday to think about the subject discussed, but then i thought i'd open a thread for discussion on the topic.

Here is the deal, the head of our department teaches the course and for our first class he gave his own lecture with advice, outlook, and general opinion based on his personal career. Part of his outlook included talking about free trade and the kinds of things that we need to be aware of as a result. He presented a graph of different nations and the number of degreed engineers in their population from the 80's to 2002. We were hovering around 70k constantly, and surprisingly enough japan being the small country that they are, 130M people, they had slightly more engineers. But that isn't the disturbing part, the disturbing part is that china from the 90's has sky rocketed with degreed engineers. So much so that at the end of the graph in 2002 they are in the 200k range with a steep upward slope. Then he tells us that as of last year, 2007, they are estimated at having 500k degreed engineers. So, even considering that they have a larger population of 1.3B people, which is a little more than 4 times our population of 300M, they still have a higher percentage of engineers per population. At there 500k and our 70k, they stand a little over 7 times the number of engineers.

This brings his obvious concern as an educator of why our numbers haven't increased steadily with population growth. He said what's even worse is that there are more people with degrees in sports journalism than engineering (no offense to anyone in sports journalism, just used for reference), and when i say engineering i'm talking about all the different disciplines added up into one (ME, ChemE, EE, CE, etc). He said that every semester they try new things to keep there incoming students (trying different professors, books, methods, etc), but a lot of them end up leaving for other departments after a semester or two. So the resulting question is, why don't we have more degreed engineers? Why are kids leaving and going to other departments? Are scientists, lawyers, MDs, and other "difficult" fields seeing the same trend or are they growing steadily with the population? And lastly, if there are more degreed engineers there, then their is a higher supply of labor and therefore they can be paid much less. So will engineering jobs be possibly next on the outsourcing chopping block?

Before you start panicking I would look more closely into what China considers an "engineer". Wouldn't surprise me if they consider technologists or technicians "engineers"

I think that in NA, we don't have the same appreciation of technologies, be it engineers or skilled trades people, that some other countries do, be it Japan, Germany, or emerging markets such as India and China. I think this has been a detriment to our continent.

Having said that, I hold a degree in Civil Engineering with a specialist in Structural Engineering, and yet now I'm an elementary school teacher...

1. Engineers are underappreciated. There is no 'aura' about being one. Think about Dilbert.

2. Engineers make good but not great money, typically less than doctors and lawyers. And lots of 'professions' that require less (or no) education make more money than engineers. Real Estate, marketing, etc, etc.

3. Becoming and Engineer is not easy. Lots of people simply don't have the math skills.

And I wouldn't look down my nose at any Chinese Engineering degrees. I have had a couple work for me, and they were in no way inferior to the 'domestic' version.

I am in no way looking down at them. I am just stating that in their tally they may have lumped them all together. That's all.

I figure it's like with everything else, there are some good ones and some bad ones, there are some good schools and some not so good schools. I worked with an engineer from china.....he was...ummm....'special'. Then again I also went to school with future engineers as well, some of them were....'special' as well.

PBH nailed it, becoming an engineer is not easy. Really, that's the catch, because most college students just don't want to work that hard. Of course, the guys I know that partied through college while in business school are regretting that decision now. Assistant manager of a retail store isn't the most rewarding job on earth.

There's no emphasis on math and science anymore, and I blame the continual "dumbing-down" of our society. There's a big chunk of engineers that came from the baby boomer generation, think of the heros they had back then. Astronauts and the space program engineers were national heroes, there was a real focus on innovation and invention as we tried to out-do Russia. 50 years later, we have a nation of fat reality show addicts that care more about Britney Spears than space exploration. Kids would rather play XBox than with Legos. Sure it's a broad, sweeping generalization, but in many cases it's true.

My biggest hope is for, ironically, TV inspiring our next generation of engineers. The success of shows like Myth Busters is promising, because it shows that math and science can be interesting. Maybe it's not the message, maybe it's the medium. Other programs that promote math, science, and creativity at an early age, especially in schools, are essential if we want to maintain our status as a world superpower.

Most engineering jobs require a license in the state the job is in. As for civil engineering, a license is definately required . And you can't really do the job properly without visiting the job site. I don't see how civil engineering can be outsourced.

Many CEs are here from China and other countries, though. I guess that's a form of outsourcing. But if the US is not turning out enough engineers, its our fault. Not their's.

Bingo. My youngest son (grade 9) refuses to believe that a portion of society can not calculate 30% of $15.00 in their head. He is wrong, lots of people can't do it.

I consider making change in a store a minimum mathematical standard for society. It is painful to see how many people do not have this skill. And do not see why it matters.

It's fine to say that civil engineering can't be outsourced, to an extent that is true. But designs and drawings can be. And as automotive manufacturing slowly disappears, whats left? Software? (India) Law? (outsourced to India already) Clothing (long gone) Banking & Insurance? (that's next) Farming? (still alive) Fast Food seems like a good field. :rolleyes:

I was unclear in my response, I did not mean you in particular. There is a general feeling amongst my co-workers that China supplies second class engineers, and I'm not sure that is true.

And I would agree, Engineers, Technicians, and Technologists are likely all lumped into one category. I hope.

Where's Souk's input? ;)

A couple of random points...

The dot com boom in the late 90's pulled a lot of would-be engineers into computer science because the money was much better.

When I graduated with a BSME ('94), there was a definite pecking order of degrees and salaries. Chem E (toughest and highest paying), Mech/Elec (second and next best paying), Civil (next toughest and paid a little less). If you couldnt hack those, you switched to computer science. Fast forward 5 years and some basic HTML skills would get you twice the money.

I think that engineers have done a horrible job of self policing and promoting it as a 'profession'. There used to be a lot more of them so they would be used for crappy tasks that a non-engineer could do (drafting, basic calcs, etc.). IMO, they should be structured more like law firms with 'assistants' and whatnot.

The offshore use of engineers is real. Especially for my old business of mechanical systems design. They send the work to offices overseas, bring it back to 'review' and 'stamp' it. Who knows, maybe thats the way to go. Use higher paid PEs to manage/review larger volumes of work done by overseas guys. That allows them to produce more work, bill more and then make more... right? The trouble is that there is some verbiage about how the work is to be directly overseen by the licensed engineer... is that possible in a virtual office? dunno.

As a side note, I quit my normal consulting engineering job about 7 years ago. I do software work now on my own and probably make more than I would have in my old career path, but without the dilbert lifestyle and litigation.

I sort of miss the engineering stuff. I need to finish up some continuing education work to keep my PE license active, it does me no good in my current gig, but its nice to have.

-Bernie

The math issue is interesting. I have a 12 year old granddaughter who was having difficulty with basic math, still, on occasion, counting on her fingers. I sat with her and was giving her some "pointers" on simple math (like multiplying nines always wind up with a product where the two numbers in the answer always add up to 9) and her mother took me aside and told me that I might upset her even more by trying to help and, after all, the schools know how to teach math. I am a mechanical engineer. I gave no answer, but decided that any help I was willing to give was not apreciated by the girl's mother, so I answer no questions from the granddaughter anymore.

I belong to the National Model Railroad Association

If only they did. The reality is they know how to teach to the lowest common denominator. And how to move kids on to the next grade.

Wait for it ;) ...after I get some engineering done at the office :)


BUT! Math in schools? The teachers teaching math and science in elementary schools aren't that bright and rely on the "district systems." I was shocked when I met some of my kids' teachers, but I kept telling myself that it was OK as long as they were smarter than the kids. But for $6000+ in taxes per year to live in the district I wasn't too happy!

Helping the kids with their math and science homework has been interesting. Biggest problem is the teacher's (system's) lack of creativity to help kids develop heuristic techniques that will help them in later life, and not just make it through the program or class!

Our 11 year old came home with metric homework and asked for help....I had to explain to him what a decimeter is! Something so simple, and the math teacher didn't think to teach them the hierachy of the meteric system! They just left it out. I was afraid to think that the teacher didn't know a decimeter existed. So I told my son to ask his teacher why he wasn't taught what a decimeter is. I never heard anything of it, but I hope my son got something out of it.

The Chinese students I've meet had a much better work/study ethic than most if not all US born students. I think this discipline allows more of them to endure the engineering curriculum.

I think it's up to parents to develop new engineers. I know my son will never be good at sports, but with a little help, I think he’ll be a fine engineer like his old man :).

Most of the Chinese/Indian/non-American engineering students that I encounter have an excellent work ethic, and excellent math skills. However, they seem to lack the creativity of many American students, as well as the people skills. In general, they seem to be more like human calculators. Excellent in academics, not so great in the real world.

This is speaking in general terms. I do not underestimate the potential that these people have, it's one of the many reasons America is slowly losing it's lead on the rest of the world.

Tom Smykowski: Well-well look. I already told you: I deal with the god damn customers so the engineers don't have to. I have people skills; I am good at dealing with people. Can't you understand that? What the hell is wrong with you people?

What is it you really DO here?

Wow, I think I'd have to have a talk with the mother and continue helping the grand-daughter.

How about because Engineering and the hard sciences aren't glamorous? When is the last time you saw a TV show titled "REAL LIFE : I'M A MECHANICAL ENGINEER!" or how about "AMERICA'S NEXT TOP MATHEMATICIAN!" They aren't glamorous, most of the time aren't rich, and from what I can tell, usually lack any semblance of proper social skills. The last part mostly applies to the Mathematicians and Computer Scientists I know. Engineers, no offense intended, seem to be rather bland. I think this is a product of all the time spent studying brain rattling subjects, as opposed to any real "character flaw."

In college, when you're at a party, it's not cool to say "I'm a math major" when a girls asks you. Because no one knows what the hell you do with it, and, since (in my opinion) schools suck at teaching math, most people take an extreme dislike to it early on, and therefore anything beyond College Algebra is inaccessible to them. Social perception is important to developing young men and women, and the "geek" and "nerd" stereotypes of the kids that are good at math and science harass them since they are young kids, which might lead them to shy away from such scholastic concentrations.

On the contrary, it's much cooler to say "I'm an international business major" and "I want to own a multi-national" because it throws visions of wealth and power, which women seem to be attracted to.

I don't exactly think it's because engineering and other disciplines are HARD, exactly. Just what is hard, anyway? I think drawing is hard. I can't even color inside lines, at 21 years old. Write a literary analysis of Shakespeare? I'd rather stick my dick in an oven. It'd be less painful.

There are plenty of kids at University today who have the skills and ambition that would be required to fulfill an engineering or sciences major, but choose something else instead. Maybe because of social perception. Or just plain because they aren't interested. My friend Nick doesn't take any notes at all in math, got a 97% in CalcII and he's shaping up to do the same with CalcIII. He's an English major.

Money? Please. According to Salary.com, a Mechanical Engineer in Lexington, KY can expect to between 51, and $61,000 a year between the 25th and 75th percentile. Mathematicians even less. There are plenty of ways to make $50-60K a year that don't involve all the educational bull**** (ie, hard classes) that Engineering and Math entail. Like Parts Manager at a body shop. The shop I used to work for paid $45K/year plus benefits for a Parts Manager, and they are only a ~$2.5M/year shop. Plenty of shops around that make much, much more (like Central Auto Body).

I have my doubts that the number of graduating ME/EE/CE/whatever students is just because it's "hard." Much deeper reasons than that, I suspect. I've mentioned a few, and I'm sure I'm missing more.

I (an ME) think many of you have nailed it.

I don't think it's about 'glamour' necessarily....it's about respect and money. What drive is there for a bright young kid to become an engineer over say...a doctor or lawyer? He or she will make far less (unless they choose to get their MBA after a masters) and have far less opportunity.

In addition...in the US we seem to want to funnel everyone toward being a manager...with that being the only way to earn a really nice living. Heck in my office (we are in the process of changing this) if you currently are a technical engineer...eg. you do the work...you are very limited in terms of salary growth....and once you get 'there'....that's it....done...no other career path or area to advance unless you want to manage.

I think when you add up level of effort and time to get thru your BS, get a masters and get your PE and then compare to a BA at school X and three hard years to get a JD and pass the bar......and then look at what your potential is in each of these paths....it's very obvious why we have SO many lawyers compared to Engineers.....heck we make lawyers like the franklin mint makes commemorative elvis coins.

The message we telegraph to young people is that if you want to work your ass off, have a well respected profession AND get the big buks/opportunity...be a lawyer or stock trader.

If you want to just work your ass off be an engineer.

By the way, I have on occasion been a speaker at several schools in similar courses as the one you mention. I absolutely love what I do...and although I don't have an MBA I have received incredible mentorship from our executives and from them, gained the tools I need to manage.....and therefore have advanced beyond 'drone'.

Q. What do engineers use for birth control?

A. Their personalities.

Its never the answer. Its how you answer. Tuck you tail between your legs and say "I'm a math major" or stand up proud and say "International Business" will get you different reactions.

Alpha male math majors go on to build hedge funds or in the case of my math major undergrad brother in law are *McDreamy* neurosurgeons.

There you go.

When I read the thread title "How many engineers?" I was expecting a thread of engineer jokes.

Best,

Kurt

Bernie, I'm the "McCreamy" of the engineering field....LOL! The wifey hates when I call myself McCreamy when she's watching "Grey's Anatomy." :D

An architect, an artist and an engineer were discussing whether it was better to spend time with the wife or a mistress. The architect said he enjoyed time with his wife, building a solid foundation for an enduring relationship. The artist said he enjoyed time with his mistress, because of the passion and mystery he found there. The engineer said, "I like both."

"Both?"

Engineer: "Yeah. If you have a wife and a mistress, they will each assume you are spending time with the other woman, and you can go to the lab and get some work done."

Q: When does a person decide to become an engineer?
A: When he realizes he doesn't have the charisma to be an undertaker.

Q: How can you tell an extroverted engineer?
A: When he talks to you, he looks at your shoes instead of his own.

Q: Why did the engineers cross the road?
A: Because they looked in the file, and that's what they did last year.

Q: How do you drive an engineer completely insane?
A: Tie him to a chair, stand in front of him, and fold up a road map
the wrong way.

****************************************
To the optimist, the glass is half full... To the pessimist, the glass is half empty... To the engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be...
************************************************** **

You might be an engineer if:

Choosing between buying flowers for your wife and upgrading your RAM is
problem.

You take a cruise so you can go on a personal tour of the engine room.

In college, you thought Spring Break was metal fatigue failure.

The salespeople at the local computer store can't answer any of your
questions.

At an air show, you know how fast the skydivers are falling.

For your wife's birthday you gave her a new CD-ROM drive or a Palm Pilot.

You can quote scenes from any Monte Python movie.

You can type 70 words per minute but you can't read your own handwriting.

You comment to your wife that her straight hair is nice and parallel.

You sit backwards on Disney rides so you can see how they do the special
effects.

You have saved every power cord from all your broken appliances.

You have more friends on the Internet than in real life.

You know what http:// stands for.

You look forward to Christmas so you can put the kids toys together.

You see a good design, and have to change it.

You spent more on your calculator than you did on your wedding ring.

You still own a slide rule and know how to use it.

You think that people yawning around you are sleep deprived.

You window shop at Radio Shack.

Your laptop computer cost more than your car.

Your wife hasn't the foggiest idea of what you do at work.

You've already calculated how much you make per second.

You've tried to repair a $5 radio.


Sadly, most of these apply.

SOUK! :D

yes indeed. just ask my wife.

Bernie..engineering is about making things better and more efficient! :D

ifastredsc: Las Cruces - New Mexico State U? I almost went there to finish my engineering degree, but the administrator I spoke to there kinda turned me off. (shrug)....

Anyhow, here are me comments to your original post (and some to address the other replies). I'm no expert and don't have any hard data, so take it for what is is, an internet post:

You can’t compare China’s growth to US or European growth. Thus their increase in the number of graduating engineering students, although an interesting statistic has to be carefully used. I don’t know anything about the Chinese engineering program, but I can say that they have a different way of doing business and engineering. Two vice-presidents of my former company spent some time with a group of Chinese engineers and plant operators. They came back with stories of engineering and construction practices that are no where near the sophistication of the US and European engineering practices.

But don’t count them out so early. The Asian mind is adaptive and quick (sorry I had to throw that in here :D ). The Chinese will come on strong and improve their engineering practices quickly. They are driven, if not by Communist task masters, by peer competition and a strong urge to better themselves socially and economically. They may someday acquire some of the western world’s engineering dollars, but I think there will always be a cultural curtain that prevents a big wave of engineering outsourcing to the Chinese, Indians or other countries.

We are currently outsourcing some of the engineering related tasks, such as drafting; however, I think once the economic benefit of outsourcing wears off and the difficulties in quality control become reality there will be a shift to pull back some of the outsourcing. I can foresee some a lot of difficulties in outsourcing the intellectual aspect of engineering. There is too much involved with good engineering to outsource at a high or large volume level.

For there to be a global engineering community that would cause me to worry about engineering outsourcing, there has to be a bigger leap in technological development to make communicating and interacting with overseas firms less painful. I can’t tell you how annoying and inefficient it is to teleconference and remotely interact with peers and clients within the US!

Something else to consider is that US population growth and economic growth are not proportional. Neither are population growth and the demand for engineers.

The above topic is far more complex and even a live round table discussion wouldn’t come close to satisfying the participants. Doing it on the web is more difficult.

Why are their more graduates from less demanding programs, such as Sports Journalism? There is likely a greater percentage of high school graduates entering college and choosing liberal degrees or other degrees that have not been the core college programs; whereas before one is more likely to go to college for the core programs like Law, Medicine, Engineering, Education, etc. I think it’s great that more and more students go to college, but going to college isn’t an automatic intelligence lottery jackpot! Some go to college seeking a dream career in media or some other less demanding field than engineering. Perhaps those students wouldn’t have gone to college 10 years ago, so the graduating numbers need to be understood when comparing them to engineering graduating numbers. That is just potentially one explanation.

As for students not sticking it out in engineering, the above may also be a factor. In past decades, you had to really want to be an engineer to consider going to engineering school. Nowadays, college isn’t as difficult to transition into as say 20 years ago. And perhaps with ease of transitions there are more applicants who are getting into engineering programs who wouldn’t have gotten into it before…or even considered it. As a result, they can’t complete the program or find they weren’t meant to be engineers and have other options.

Sure there are social and popular cultural factors as to why there has been a slow increase in the number of US engineering grads, but engineers will always be engineers. We don’t have glamorous jobs at times, and for the most part our profession is not as cool as some other professions. Hollywood won’t be coming out to tape a reality show about me and my engineering life anytime soon. Yet, they have made reality shows of chefs, hair stylists, musicians, etc. Should we be worried? Nah. If someone is going to be pulled into that kind of pop culture soup, let them, they would have dropped out of engineering school anyhow. If they end up at college getting a liberal degree, chances are they won’t be using that degree. If they do use that degree, they probably won’t have the security and opportunities that an engineering degree can provide.

Engineers can be cool, and engineers can make a lot of money. I’ve been out of school for less than 10 yrs, and I’m making a better living than probably 95% of the friends I had in college, which included students of all disciplines. I sure as heck didn’t have a hard time getting laid in college…even when my reply was “I’m an engineering major.” :D

Remember, not all lawyers and doctors or finance professionals make the top dollars. If you are to compare engineers to doctors and lawyers, consider that the engineer has at least a 3 yrs head start on earnings and 3 years less educational costs. (we only need a 4 yr degree to start on our career path) Then consider the hours that doctors and lawyers are committed to their jobs (think medical interns and new law associates). A 40-60 hr a week engineering job that pays $50K-$125K per year doesn’t seem so bad. Six figures for a good engineer these days is not out of the realm of possibility.

So much more…but I have to get back to work,


Mr. McCreamy Engineer :D

The trick to making a good living in the engineering field is being the exact opposite of what you guys are describing as a engineer.

I am in the business end of the engineering field were I meet with clients, develop concepts, and deal new contracts. I spend very little time dealing with in depth calculations. In our consulting firm we have 10 engineers to sit in a room and crunch #'s and only one of me. Who's more valuable?

The trick is, developers do not want to talk to a real estate salesman about building a million $ project. They want to talk to a engineer that knows a project from the roots.

Ha, Ha; some funny but fitting stuff posted here!

I can see the Chinese outputting more engineers than our Countries because of their educational disciplines. Face it, our kids today aren't being challenged enough to think.

I teach business courses at the high school and I show the kids how the math skills apply to everyday life after graduation. But no way to shake it, becoming an engineer takes some smarts; period. Even out of every 100 that do become engineers, how many really practise in the trade?

The Chinese society is poised for great educational results IMO.
I've got 5 kids and not one has taken to math in their school work?

I've never been able to figure out how to explain to the kids why they'll ever need the skills of solving a problem with 27 unkowns though?

Terry,
You make some great points here; but as an engineer with some of the basic personality flaws that result from being wired so; I have found a successful relationship by partnering with a top notch salesman. Great people person, could sell fridges to eskimos kinda guy. I provide all the details, he deals with the people. We have a great partnership and after 20 years of struggling to find this formula for success, I am very happy (if an engineer can be happy?)

Our clients love the services I provide (details baby, details); but it wouldn't happen without the likes of the front man.

Good points you make though, but I'm thinking you're less of an engineering personality than the sales personality?

I'd say less of a engineer personality but I do have a BS in CE from FSU and am a project manager for a CE consulting firm.

Don't get me wrong I can do almost any type of calculation/ program if need be but I find knowing a little about a lot benefits me more than a lot about a little.

T,
There was a book I'd read years ago, it was a sequal publication; called the "E" something or other? Can't remember the title exactly and I passed it along to someone. It was a great book about entrepeneurs and personality types though.

The book explained in detail the 3 different personality types as they apply to business; well actually there were 4.......
1. Technical
2. Sales
3. Managerial
The fourth type was a person that had a combination of the 3; sounds like you have that Blessing? Was by far the greatest personality IMHO! You probably have a very rewarding career. Set the bar high and make some money buddy!!
Cheers

This was the book; the "E myth"
Good read too.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1201039301.jpg

LINK: http://www.amazon.com/E-Myth-Revisited-Small-Businesses-About/dp/0887307280/ref=pd_bbs_sr_8?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1201038989&sr= 8-8

Years ago I was talking to a fellow coop student who is Chinese. He said when they walk into a freshman engineering class and it's all white americans they know they've got it made. Then he said when they walk into a senior engineering class and it's all white americans they drop the class. He said the Chinese have a better study ethic than the Americans so they'll get the better grades, but at the senior level the Americans study and they're smarter. Just repeating what he said.

I keep thinking about changing jobs, either going back to school for a JD which is very unlikely or becoming a manager. I got an offer the other day for 50% more than my current salary to manage a machine shop. Then I think about my job: six figures to work about 40 hours a week with no one to supervise and I realize I'm content where I am.

Engineering degrees are like many things in this country, the supply is eventually governed by the needs of the marketplace. As the agriculture becomes more concentrated into fewer, larger farms, fewer farmers are required. Many everyday problems can be now solved with more concentrated technology that requires fewer actual degreed engineers. There are engineering firms that now have technicians taking the places of what PE's used to do(PE's still sign and stamp the plans after review). Some upstate colleges are actually reducing the engineering programs because of a lack of students. It is a curious situation. Students these days seem to be very career conscious and tend to pick occupations with growth possibilities. Maybe all we need is 70,000 degreed engineers..