Accomplishments of Socialism

Mule · 01-27-2008, 07:02 AM

The lefties here are constantly pointing out the superiority of the socialist way.
I was just thinking, if you listed all the great achievements of mankind accomplished under socialism, you could do it on a matchbook cover & still have room for a few phone numbers. Have I overlooked some? Is there anything they make that anybody else wants? Rice a Roni comes from San Francisco. I think that's about as close as it gets.

livi · 01-27-2008, 07:09 AM

Well, a few principals perhaps. Free health care for everyone at all times springs to mind. Whether you need a lung transplant or just a prescription for antibiotics, it is there for everyone free of charge, whether you can afford it or not.

Besides that, uh...let me think..uh-mm..let me get back to you.

Mo_Gearhead · 01-27-2008, 07:15 AM

I always though Mussolini had those train schedules pretty efficient ..but alas, I just discovered that too was a myth!

island911 · 01-27-2008, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by livi

Well, a few principals perhaps. Free health care for everyone at all times springs to mind. Whether you need a lung transplant or just a prescription for antibiotics, it is there for everyone free of charge, whether you can afford it or not.
...

That doesn't come from socialism, it comes from having lot's of money, say from oil.

Mule · 01-27-2008, 07:48 AM

I thought Dottore, Supperman, Shaun of the dead, Moneyguy & the rest would have a list the size of War & Peace by now.

scottbombedout · 01-27-2008, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by island911

That doesn't come from socialism, it comes from having lot's of money, say from oil.

We didnt have oil or lots of money in the Uk in 1948 but that was the introduction of the National Health Service here.

Thanks to a Socialist Government at the time

fintstone · fintstone's Garage

If not oil...then you must tax the crap out of everyone...so you end up punishing the achievers and damaging the economy to provide substandard care.

island911 · 01-27-2008, 08:06 AM

Scott - There are differences in "free" healthcare systems. One which transplants lungs is at a higer level than one that has you standing in a que dying for treatment. My point being, it's not Socialism that drives a good system, it's money.

scottbombedout · 01-27-2008, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by island911

Scott - There are differences in "free" healthcare systems. One which transplants lungs is at a higer level than one that has you standing in a que dying for treatment. My point being, it's not Socialism that drives a good system, it's money.

Dont understand what you are trying to say here Island.
We certainly dont stand in a que dying for treatment.

scottbombedout · 01-27-2008, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fintstone

If not oil...then you must tax the crap out of everyone...so you end up punishing the achievers and damaging the economy to provide substandard care.

Again Flintstone, where is the substandard care, certainly not in the UK.
I have private health Insurance through our company. Believe it or not but I chose to go with the NHS, the service was absolutely first class.

It is care driven. Not profit driven.

Scott

island911 · 01-27-2008, 08:16 AM

I didn't say that the UK was such (other "free" solutions HAVE been that extreme).

It's all about resources.

Does the UK have free dental?

fintstone · fintstone's Garage

£104 billion a year in taxes for a reprted current goal of only an 18 week wait for many non-emergency procedures seems a bit excessive to me. The option for private insurance (although you are still taxed...and as such pay twice) is likely the reason that the waits are not longer.

Jim Sims · 01-27-2008, 08:25 AM

The first thing that popped into my mind is how do you define "socialism versus the free-market or capitalistic system"; all extant systems are a blend of the two. Exactly when does a government function become socialistic? Are the armed forces socialistic? Are public health systems socialistic - do you think disease will respect the boundaries of a gated community? One will always be paying taxes for things or activities one doesn't think they personally need or that they do not personally support. One has little use for the fire department until one's house (or the neighbor's house) is on fire. Also, if part of society, one will always have to live with some restrictions on one's behavior/actions and even expression.

My second thought was the elimination in the developed world of the killer epidemic diseases caused by poor sanitation and fouled water systems.

My third thought was the US Interstate Highway System.

My fourth thought was about the unhappiness of the "angry fringe".

Cheers, I'm off to drop my old 911 engine and begin replacing fuel lines in the tunnel.

scottbombedout · 01-27-2008, 08:28 AM

Yep, I'm registered with an NHS Dentist. You have to pay a small percentage of your treatment as a modest contribution.
I was previously private. What did it for me was I was quoted just under £1000 for a new crown. Under NHS I paid £150. Absolutely no difference in treatment.

scottbombedout · 01-27-2008, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fintstone

£104 billion a year in taxes for a reprted current goal of only an 18 week wait for many non-emergency procedures seems a bit excessive to me. The option for private insurance (although you are still taxed...and as such pay twice) is likely the reason that the waits are not longer.

Can you believe that a lot of Private hospitals use the resources of the NHS like operating theatres, scanners etc. Most NHS Consultants have second lucrative jobs with these Private Health Care providers.

No wonder there can be delays when the resources are used like that.

fintstone · fintstone's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottbombedout

Yep, I'm registered with an NHS Dentist. You have to pay a small percentage of your treatment as a modest contribution.
I was previously private. What did it for me was I was quoted just under £1000 for a new crown. Under NHS I paid £150. Absolutely no difference in treatment.

If you are employed with a good salary, likely you paid even more under NHS...it just came out of your wages. Where do you think the £104 billion a year the system costs comes from?

fintstone · fintstone's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottbombedout

Can you believe that a lot of Private hospitals use the resources of the NHS like operating theatres, scanners etc. Most NHS Consultants have second lucrative jobs with these Private Health Care providers.

No wonder there can be delays when the resources are used like that.

I can get pretty much any procedure I want done without any wait...and imagine I pay far less per year for medical than you do through taxes.

MFAFF · 01-27-2008, 08:35 AM

Free dental to a certain extent and free mental for all...

But the real issue is what is socialism? And before you leap down my throat bear in mind where 'socialism' was first born (not in the writings of Marx, Lenin or Trotsky) and where and by whom it was first implemented.

If by socialism you mean the 'taking of deductions from earnings to pay for services such as health ,education, illness etc then you will find that this originated with the very capitalist mill owners in the the UK during the Industrial Revolution..

Oh yes.. they were the first to use deductions from their workers' salaries in order to provide 'free' health care, 'free' education 'free illness' oh introduced the notion of paid holidays as well. To say nothing of the 'working week' the notion of a set number of hours work per week and all sorts of so called normal conditions.

Why did they do this.. well it was clear that productivity in the mills was increased if medicals help was provided close to the work place, if education was also provided a pool of new recruits... same with illness help.. and holidays..none of this was anything other than enlightened self interest.

Now its true that the current 'socialism' has moved far from these roots.. but much of your working culture is derived from that... so next time you can take a week end with the family, a paid holiday, or send your child to primary and secondary education without paying directly for the service.. think socialism.

On another level the first 'Police forces' and 'fire services' were funded in the the same manner and for the benefit of the mill owners....so perhaps we can assign that to 'socialism' of a sort.

Socialism does depend on money no doubt, but if the real capitalist mill owners of the industrial revolution were inclined to use this system of funding it was purely out of financial gain for themselves....

URY914 · URY914's Garage

This was discussed this week on a radio show I heard. It was said that every socialist leader has failed during the last 100 years.

scottbombedout · 01-27-2008, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fintstone

I can get pretty much any procedure I want done without any wait...and imagine I pay far less per year for medical than you do through taxes.

The difference being that part of my taxes also pay for the less unfortunate in society to benefit from the same system as I do. Hey, thats Socialism

My total tax burden is 26% of my salary. Be nice if it was less but seems fair to me.

I've been in Intensive care 3 times in 18 months. If I had needed any procedures they would have been done immediately.