Child custody across state lines ADVICE???
 

If you have experience, please feel free to educate me or give some advice.

My on again-off again 3 year GF has two children. A boy, 8, and a girl, 4.

She has full custody of the boy and no issues there.

She has a highly volatile custody relationship with the little girl's father, ie: No Contact orders, a "parenting coordinator" who they must communicate through, etc. Very stupid, if you ask me, but some people just can't do it on their own, I guess. I'm not really judging it.

She is the primary custodian of the girl, and the father gets the girl 3 weekends a month.

We argue often about it, I say that if we were to be together permanently I would have to move to where she lives, which is NOT exciting to me whatsoever. She disagrees and thinks that she could come to my place, 600 miles away, and we could just AMEND the custody agreement to make it work better.

I don't think that these two (father-mother) could even amend the custody arrangement without a court battle. And a series of interviews, psychological evaluations, etc., for me as well, to prove I'm not a creep.

I feel strongly that the little girl must have a good relationship with her father, no matter what.

So,

Do any of you fellas have experience with child custody issues across large distances? Where the parents' relationship is NOT COOL?

I just think sometimes it would be a huge, very expensive, damaging, nightmare.

Advice? Spare me the "if you love her, you'll do anything" talk, but thank you.

Much litigated area of domestic law. The Uniform Child Custody and Jurisdiction Act (federal law) will govern. They'll have to go back to court to modify visitation to address the new problem of distance, transportation responsibilities, schedules, etc.

It wasn't clear ...different fathers of the children? Reason I ask is if they are considerations re: the two of them spending time with father. In any event it is not uncommon sitruation but a lwayer would need to look at wording of the custody decree to get an idea of how to proceed, what jurisdiction, etc.

It is doable for her to move to where you are.

Gettin' lonely touring?;)

I'll offer the alternative: maybe time for the on-again-off-again to go off.

For the life of me I don't understand contentious custody situations. In every case I've seen (and I've seen a few in my last few years of dating), the ones that were messy were because of *both* parties involved. Sure, "the other side" was more to blame, but it takes two to tango. Unless she's sorted out her issues you're in for a ride.

I am a firm believer in joint custody, and doing so in a manner that is best for the kid. In my case I moved very close to my ex, and will continue to live within 5-10 minutes of her until she has to move. At that point we'll have to sit down and figure out how best to proceed.

Any woman who gets involved with me knows it is a package deal. Right now I'm sorting through logistic issues with my current g/f as we've gotten more serious. But she knows I'll be moving in the next few month for school district reasons, and if she wants to see me, then she has to work with that.

I don't think it is reasonable for a 4 year old to travel 600 miles regularly to see a parent. Either you suck it up and live close, or the adult travels to see the kid. ymmv.

I'd advise you to back out of the relationship, no matter how enthralled you may currently be. Things like this can break apart a relationship in short order.
Especially after the fantastic monkey sex becomes routine...

(edit) Cindy & I had a LOT of problems early on in the marriage, and that after her ex signed adoption papers that made me the official "parent", thus giving up ALL his rights. His main concern? The lousy under $100 per moon child support payment. Yeah, he was/is a total scuzball. The main relationship problem? Me, trying to be the disciplanarian, would too often hear: "She's MY daughter...you have nothing to say." Kids quickly learn how to divide parents...especially when one is not the "blood" parent. So...again, be VERY careful here.

Run, Forrest, RUN! I consider myself lucky that my marriage stayed intact until the kid left home. With these additional complications? I wouldn't give long odds for a successful & happy long term relationship.

Ignoring everything else, from the child's point of view (and their happiness) it would be best if both natural parents are close enough for a painless commute. A child is happiest with access to both & easy access to their friends & school & all of the activities that are attached to them. My kids had a 25 miles commute between households & even that was a major long term pain for all.

I will let others advise on legalities etc.

Ian

Yep. It gets better and better, doesn't it?

Courts almost universally favor joint custody...however unless the parents are mature and put the child's best interest first, it rarely works.

Don't worry, Paul. I'm a long way past starry-eyed.

I'll offer the alternative: maybe time for the on-again-off-again to go off.

Yes, I understand the 'common sense' approach.

For the life of me I don't understand contentious custody situations. In every case I've seen (and I've seen a few in my last few years of dating), the ones that were messy were because of *both* parties involved. Sure, "the other side" was more to blame, but it takes two to tango. Unless she's sorted out her issues you're in for a ride.

I firmly agree with you, Nostatic, and I believe the NEITHER ONE OF THEM are any good at all with the issue.

But, of course, you can't mention that to the girlfriend, it's ALL HIS FAULT.

I don't think it is reasonable for a 4 year old to travel 600 miles regularly to see a parent. Either you suck it up and live close, or the adult travels to see the kid. ymmv.

I tend to agree with you. However, I think the parent that 'moves the kid further and further away' should bear some responsibility for creating the problem.

Read my edit...

not common sense...survival. You gotta pick your battles and I've gotten to a point where this is one I won't do. I ended a relationship with a smokin' hot woman who made gobs of money. The problem? She was knee deep in her divorce fight (after 3 years of going back and forth) and just would not give in. Everything was her ex's fault. At one point I said, "look, you make boatloads of money...just give him some and end the nonsense."

Well, that went over well :p

I agree that the one who moves should be the one to deal with it, but in reality there are often circumstances that don't make it so clear cut. And if you love your kid, you do what you need to do. I guess it comes down to respect. If my ex tells me that she wants/needs to move out of town/state, then I'll respect that she's doing that because it is best for her and my son (in *their* relationship) and we'll figure out how to make it work. We would likely go to a school year/summer split if that happened, but he's 11 and spent most of his time with me up until the last few years (when we did the 50/50 split). Not optimal, but we'd make it work. And I'd fly up to see him regularly assuming I had the means to do so.

I guess my point is that while everyone has baggage in a relationship, there are some things that aren't worth engaging because you can't win. Or even break even. If the relationship is on-again-off-again, that seems to indicate that you can live without her. And this kind of issue is a pretty big red flag to me. But ymmv.

As it stands right now, they already have a 70-mile commute, two days a week. M-F at moms.

It's kind of an interesting feeling, actually typing out the facts.

I often find it helpful to write things out. It becomes a bit more dispassionate and you can see patterns, possibilities, etc that you might not otherwise notice just living in your head.

heh...i said head.

I can't give you great advice here except to say all my moves since my divorce have been to make things easier on my kids. It's way easier since mine are older and my ex and I are on good terms.

I'm in the process of ending a relationship with my GF partly because her adult kids are such a big part of her life and her son who has no business having kids has a 1 year old that she now has to parent most of the time.

She's a great person but I'm getting out before this gets messier.

Sounds like your situation is messy now and would get a lot worse if she moves the kids 600 miles away from the father. Makes me wonder what kind of person she is.............

I think she's just got a huge pile of lemons, and she's trying her best to make some lemonade. Every time we get involved again, we have a great time, and,

then, when the realities set in, everyone freaks out and we don't talk for a month.

I agree that she's so emotional about the child situation she can't think straight about it whatsoever.

So? You are not smart enough to run? Don't blame me when a disaster lands on your lap. I'm done with this thread.

Damn. Who pooped in your wheaties, Paul? I'm just tossing stuff out there for some friendly advice. I'm plenty smart, thank you.

All you guys are cheering and slapping our other fellow Pelican on the back for reconciling with the woman he has married, divorced, remarried, and almost divorced again in two years, with hardly a snicker. So I thought I'd throw something out there and see what happened. My mistake.

Thanks, everyone but Paul. I still like you though, in this imaginary internet world.

Here is a story I'm familar with:

Round 1
Guy meets girl
Girl has son w/ ex
Ex out of the picture because he is a "worthless sob"
Stupid guy gets married and adopts kid
Marriage ends after 8 years
Ugly divorce
Girl throws kid under the bus and does everything to trash guys relationship with son.
Guy is now "worthless sob"
On going visitation issues...

Round 2
Guy meets girl 2
Girl has son w/ex
Girl makes sure ex is involved in sons life
Guy and girl get married
3 kids later its all good

Amazing, how each treated their ex was an indicator of their future relationships...

You've been warned.:eek:

My 2 cents.

If a kid, shared or not, doesn't bring out the best in someone, nothing will . . . IMO.

My ex and I have a 50/50 legal and sharing arrangement that has worked very well for almost 6 years now; Daughter is very well adjusted, makes great grades and was just elected to the Student Council! (ok, enough bragging)

We live within 10 minutes of each other. As someone said previously, the "court" prefers the child to have convenient access to both the Mom and Dad. If one parent wants to move out of state, and the other parent disagrees, then the "moving" parent has to make a case of why moving would benefit the child; extremely difficult unless there are serious drug, alcohol or child abuse problems which have resulted in these events being on "record", not just hearsay. IMO, it would require extraordinary circumstances for such a court approval to move a child out of state.

Like I said before, if one or both of the parents are putting their interests before the child's, then not only will the child suffer, the offending parent or parents have his/her/their priorities fracked up.

You can learn a lot about a person based upon how they treat their kids.

FWIW.

Best,

Kurt

i'm just impressed that the boyfriend in this situation (you) is concerned enough about the kids to seek advice!

kids need two parents, that is for sure.

I don't have any experience with this first hand. Lucky enough for me.

My sister, on the other hand, is a basket case. She was married, then divorced, then in a same-sex relationship. Then she met a guy and has 2 kids with him. That guy had 2 kids from a previous marriage. They never married, because they "didn't believe in marriage" but my sister changed her last name to match the "father's." Go figure.

The "father" is useless, because he left my sister to make more kids with some other broad (6 kids by 3 different women). My sister met another guy, married and got the guy to adopt the 2 kids. Now, there is trouble with the husband/adoptive father, and she's talking about lawyers and such.

She's a train wreck, I get that and have known that for a long time.

Thing is, it's never her fault. At least that is what she thinks. It's always someone else's fault that things didn't go as she expected. Now, I have it on record with her that I "told her so." So she avoids me now, because she doesn't like the fact that I see this stuff coming from a mile away.

Anyway, the point is that it takes two to tango. And unless there is some well documented evidence of substance abuse or violence, then you should expect that 1/2 of the issues with your GF's EX are of her doing. (half being a guesstimate, ymmv).

Look for those patterns of behavior. Understand that people often don't change. We also seek out comfortable situations, whether we know it or not, and sometimes that means lots of drama for some folks.

Why not just date? Why do you need to take it to the next level?

I didn't get into the "run forrest, run" mode because that was not the subject of Jeremy's query. It absolutely amazes me how quickly these threads can get sidetracked. Sometimes its fun to stumble onto an active thread about three pages long and only read the first post and the last. What may start out with "My neighbor borrowed some tools and hasn't returned them" degenerates into "Hillary is a beyotch."

Back to your original post. I have no biological children of my own, but have step children with my now wife...twin 17 y.o. daughters and a 19 y.o. step son. Been in their lives for 4-5 years and they haave added so much more to my life than I could possibly add to theirs. You're getting in much earlier than I did and I suspect they add to your life even moreso. Especially if you have no kids of your own.

As to moving out of state, the UCCJA generally mandates that jurisdiction for any modiffication remains with the Court of original jurisdiction. There are provisions for transferring it to where the custodial parent moves to if the court of original jurisdiction agrees, but generally not. Wherever jurisdiction ends up, the original decree will have to be modified by the judge even if changes are agreed to by the parties. Don't allow her to fall into the trap of a verbal agreement with the father...the original decree controls until ratified by the Court/judge. A concern even moreso in this specific situation where the mother and father can't agree on things and require a mediator/family master.

One of the things that usually happens when great distance is between the parties is that the court will recognize frequent weekend visitation is not feasible. So what usually happens is that non-custodial parent will get visitation less often but for longer periods. For example instaed of 3 weekends a month and a week or to in the summer, the court may set it at one weekend a month and 2 months in the summer and 10 days at Christmas. Quite often the parent that has moved away will be responsible for transportation for the child to visit the parent that has stayed put. 600 miles is not a distance where the parties can meet half way to exchange the child as it puts the kid in travel mode for a total of 24 hours coming and going....kinda burns up a weekend.

Another consideration (at least here in the Bible belt) is the living arrangements. Many courts require a "morality clause " stating that the parents will not cohabit or have "overnight guests of the opposite sex to whom they are not related by blood or marriage." May be different in sophisticated Colorado.

Once they get about 10-12, it is not unreasonable to fly them to visit dad. Once they're in their mod-teens, they have lives of their own so visitation becomes much more spotty when there are great distances. And mom needs to be prepared for the time when for whatever reason the children want to live with their father...doesn't mean she's a bad mother but it happens quite a bit.


Finally on a personal level, you must understand that no matter how much gf loves you, you will always come in a distant second to her children if push comes to shove. And be prepared for mixed messages as to what role she wants you to take as a step-parent.

In my current relationship I made it clear to the kids and their father I was in no way trying to take his place. The point is somewhat moot as he married a country music heiress and moved to Ventura Beach, CA. They see him maybe twice a year.

Good luck....

I don't think it was a sidetrack at all. There is no answer in isolation...the particular issue is part of a bigger set of questions. And some on this board have been down that road. We're just trying to impart some of our hard earned wisdom (or bitterness :p).

Okay, I lied...back on this thread. Gogar, I wish you well, I really do. But you did ask for opinions. It all worked out well for Cindy & I....may you survive the storms I'm sure will come. These happen in all marriages, yeah they do.

+2

Run, don't walk...

Thank you, Paul. I did ask for opinions; I didn't need you to call me stupid. I have been very cautious and responsible with this whole thing for 3 years, to my benefit, I think.

I just wanted to throw the idea out to the brain trust and see what happened. So I see what happened.

Many people ask questions they already know the answers to. I have lots of opinions about it, many of which have been echoed in the thread. I just wanted to hear from some voices of experience, all of which are welcomed.

And, of course, i expected a lot of "Run Forrest" knee-jerk responses, as it seems 75% of the guys on O/T are bitter divorcees. No problem.:)

Gogar, I went through this with my ex-wife. I was Husband #3. She had Children from 2 previous marriages (1 girl from each). Husband #1 was fine, Husband #2 and my wife didn't get along. I ended up having to commute 1 hour each way, so that she could attempt to get custody back. I had actually suggested the move first, so she wouldn't have to go to court. It ended up that she lost custody and never got it back. This lead to a lot of stress and that caused issues between us.

Marriage is hard enough. If you are already having issues with this, and you aren't married yet, it will most likely not improve when you are married. I am not bitter over my marriage. And I certainly wasn't bitter over the child issue. You need to understand that these problems will only get worse.

Never married, but having just come out of (and still trying to get closure on) a 9 year relationship (with someone who admitedly brought "lots of baggage"), I will add one thing (that I KNOW you already know based upon the single guy's thread): "If she has issues with her ex, you will likely be the next ex she has issues with". Good luck!

I bet 75% of the guys on this board bought the P because they got divorced :D (lolo, me ??? nahhhhh ;)

This thread drove a stake through me ... dam ... I feel better that I'm not the only one !!! :D

My parents divorced and my dad actually let us move to SoCal. This was even after mom called the RCP at the Toronto airport for "alleged" kidnapping ... dumb dad just had to say, "see you in hell" before we drove off for the airport. My parents did like each other in the end but for some reason mom let us go to see dad in the summers and winters. I was like sweet! Different city to hang out for a while in. yet, same mom would tell my dad that he couldn't see us after driving 10 hours.

women are weird ... and I didn't learn anything from that :(


I got mez a gf with a 12 year old boy ... yes, unfortunately I'm by far number 2.
yes, mez, being dumb again.
yez, mez, knowz "run forest run ..." especially considering I can get no baggage tail.

Why ??? the only answer I could think of (same for her) was that, something deep down deep, we have this connection that has out lasted several arguments (of course, I blurt out when she pulls my ex out, "doh, look at yourself first") Not cool, but why should I take BS when I know I don't have the baggage that she has, and I know that I have a higher resell value. I also told her bluntly after a recent fight that I was advised to bail. Well, along with the fact that various opinions choose her side, mine, or both/neither. And then emphasised again that I was "advised to run" ... gave her a few minutes to consider what I was saying. Interestingly enough ... she has been lovey dovey again.

resall value ;)

This is one dang hard decision to make:
1.) stay home because kid doesn't feel like going and then either watch cartoon network or watch him play WI for hours
2.) find something that you can just jump in the car with and go weeeeeeeeeeeeeee :D
We all know this !

doh, I must be dummer than I think I am .... oh well :D "life is always like a box of chocolates"

Back to topic again:
You gotta get the wife to communicate with her ex. You know what to say to her ex.
Like it has mentioned, get it in writting.

Is her ex being a jerk because:
1.) he is one
2.) he holds spite towards her
3.) he doesn't like you

kids don't deserver the tug-of-war or spy-games. They should be out of this war. It's not fair for them. We know this ... but do they?

Good Luck and hope that things work out, sometimes the start align at the right time :D

Jeremy, I have done hundreds of divorces and Dueller is giving you good advice. In the end, keep in mind that your opinion in the matter will mean little. Not trying to insult you, just giving advice from experience. Good luck.