Good question. Both general contractors (earthwork, concrete forming/pouring, etc) and specialty contractors (electrical, mechanical, etc) directly hire workers (laborers, electricians, plumbers, etc). They both have stable crews that work for them year-round, or nearly so. They both have occasional, temporary need of extra workers. Either one could be non-union, particularly if the workers are okay with that. If they prefer a union, that is their right in my country.

Hiring temporary workers by placing a classified ad in the local newspaper is frought with peril. The vast majority of applicants will be unsuitable. Management will need to take the time to evaluate them. But they won't really know until they hire them. Same with union workers, really. But at least if the worker does not work out, you send them back to the hall, talk to the dispatcher and he tries to send you someone who will meet your need. If the worker you rejected failed the drug test, the union disciplines that worker. (usually treatment is require for first offense, second offense gets you the boot. Unions around here do not tolerate drug use.) If the worker you rejected was lazy, the dispatchers speak with the worker. If the worker does not shape up, he does not get dispatches.

The facility you just took on as a contractor.......for 2.5 years there will be a fairly steady workforce on site.....if you plan it very well. It will be about 350 workers. There every day. There is virtually no such thing as a large, efficient, non-union contractor.

That would be me ;)

While I don't doubt that many iron worker union types know their trade, they would also know their trade if the unions did not exist. Other than in your mind, there is nothing magical about skills of union workers vs skills of non union members. There are plenty of industries that require a skilled workforce that are non-union. Sure it would be hard for a new small non union company to compete with union labor in a community that is dominated by unions, but that is not because unions and only unions can produce talented workers....It simply means that the majority of the talented workers belong to the union that presently has the monopoly on that type of business in that area.

You naturally paint us union haters as emotionally being unable to see your logic in regards to unions....I would respectfully counter that your emotional attachment to your union career simply wreaks of an understandable biased point of view.

As a teen, I worked summers for my non-union carpenter grandfather. I KNOW for a fact that there are plenty of HIGHLY skilled non-union contractors. ;)

So basically, the unions provide me the same service as the newspaper, but for a much greater price. That makes perfect sense!

Like Tim, I have a lot of contact with highly skilled non-union workers. Other than extorting money from businesses and throwing their weight around, I see absolutely no point to them.

Hi Matt,

Yes, but we were the architects on a condo in Palm Beach for which the workers were all Hispanics, who, unfortunatley, didn't have construction skills. Nice people all, but they had no construction experience.

And the result was bad workmanship, not because they were Hispanics but because they had no construction skills.

Unfortunately, the General Contractor charged them out at $40/hr. but we are certain they paid them only $10/hr., if that. The GC pocketed the difference.

Would a union have made a difference? Probably, because then we would have had skilled craftsmen on the jobsite.

But we were talking about union practices where the Union is unreasonable, overly-protective, and "cheats" busninesses, thus driving the business's costs up to the point that businesses now avoid towns like New York, Chicago, Dallas, etc.

How can anyone justify the kind of practice that I worte about in my earlier post? That can't be justified.

Andras, but would your contractor have chosen to hire the more expensive union workers? If he only wanted to pay illegals, I seriously doubt it.

Very true, Andras. And in fact labor unions are changing. Again, I fully agree that many union antics are unfortunate for everyone. But in the meantime, they have developed a bad reputation. And they have lost market share. They are responding. Believe me, they are. Nation-wide. The Carpenters' union especially, but others as well. Their agenda is to take much better care of the contractor. There are a lot of details, and changes are difficult, but there is definitely a broad and dynamic movement afoot.

The car died, Andras. I was sitting at a stoplight when a Dodge 1500 Quad smacked me in the butt. The car is probably bent too badly to repair. Not cost-effective, they say. I still have it, and will transfer parts to the new SC (a '79 Euro in Polar Silver). It is truly hard for me to come to grips with the notion that there is one less Smoky Quartz Metallic 911 in the world now. Don't be surprised if I strip one and paint it that color, to restore that balance in the Universe.

I'm done with you. I tried. All the large, efficient construction contractors in the Seattle area are union. If only they were as smart as you are.

By the way, in defense of Super (I know he can defend himself), but Super is an Owner, who hires general contractors. He has seen the value that Unions bring with skilled labor force for his many projects on his "turf".

But were were talking about stupid union practices, not a general discussion of the value of union hiring halls.

So far, no one has countered the dilemma of stupid union practices.

Anyone?

If you run a large construction company and all of a sudden need to double your workforce, then the Unions have the advantage.

Example,
In my company, I have the same 30 or so guys working in the field everyday. One of my customers calls me and offers me a job starting tomorrow that will require 10 men. I want the job but I don't have any available employees to do the work. I call the hall and the next morning I have 10 well trained men on my jobsite doing the job without much supervision. Plus they all speak the same language and can read.

Without the Union Hiring Hall I would have to pass on the job.

This is an example of the positives to the union. The downside is that each one of those men costs me $46/hr direct labor cost including insurances.

Leave it silver Supe.... I wish my GP white '79 was silver!

That's tapping out awful early, isn't it?

Answer me one question Supe. If everyone is union, what would happen if I attempted to hire a number of licensed workers, but didn't involve the union? What would be the reaction from the large labor community?

Matt,
I already answered that question for Sir Supe.

Nothing would happen other than pickets. Happens everyday around here.

Another benefit is the grievance process. Believe it or not.

Worker feels unfairly treated. Goes to management directly. Management says his treatment is not different from other, and told to get back to work. He goes back to work and sabotages a $200K piece of equipment and quits.

Worker feel unfairly treated. Goes to his union steward. Steward goes to the Business Agent. Business Agent meets with management (or maybe doesn't), then tell the worker that everyone is treated the same. Worker is given an opportunity to transfer to another job. Worker accepts that. Whether he leaves or stays, he has some trust in his representative.

Again, there are lots of folks like Matt who start construction companies and try to run them without partnering with the best labor source in town. One of two things happen. Either that company never becomes more than marginally successful.......or they figure out the advantages of that kind of relationship.

Some jobsites have 2 entrances, one for the union contractors and another for the non-union.

Union representatives and union workers, do stupid stuff sometimes. No quarrel here. Some localities are endemic with this. Fact. Very unfortunate. Very likely to change, at least eventually.

Exactly, they are all union.... If they weren't, there would be large established private companies who be doing the jobs just as well and probably cheaper on average (without the effed up union policies ;)).

Hi Tim,

Have you seen that silver is now just the second most popular color of cars? White is now the old silver!!!! LOL.

Have you actually seen a beautiful Smokey Quartz Metallic early in the morning, or in full sun, or at dusk, when the sun radiates (yes, radiates) off those gorgeous SC flares and flanks, and when the depth of that color is like looking into the eyes of a brown-eyed beauty?

Then wash the car with a sheep-skin, slowly over the rear-end, and you'll undersdtand the joys of owning a Smokey Quartz Metallic.

Wooops, did we just change the subject?

Or you start a company in a state not dominated by the union, independently hire licensed and experienced employees, and enjoy equal productivity with greater profits. Damn, that really would suck.:D

It's not that easy to get rid of me. I'm just not planning to educate your. I'll provide information, but not accept your responsibility to learn.

In Seattle, workers have WAY more to do than picket. They picket when their contract, and several extensions, expire. To encourage resolution. But during the construction season, they are all busy working. The benches are clear. If you are a large non-union company trying to accomplish an aggressive construction schedule at this time, "good luck" probably won't be enough to succeed. I guess....here.....market forces are working the way you like. Except that the construction labor shortage here is making it unlikely you will find any real skills in locations other than the union halls.

In the nearly five years I have been on this project and living in the greater Seattle area, I have seen construction pickets one time. And they were not on my site. In fact, they were at a concrete batching plant. Where a very large international employer thought it would be cute to give Labor a black-eye.

Ha ha! I like most colors of 911's, but my dream 911 as a kid was always a silver 930. I guess I am getting sick of white for some reason (for no good reason, I have a white BMW, white 911SC, white 924 and white 924S).