It's not that easy to get rid of me. I'm just not planning to educate your. I'll provide information, but not accept your responsibility to learn.

In Seattle, workers have WAY more to do than picket. They picket when their contract, and several extensions, expire. To encourage resolution. But during the construction season, they are all busy working. The benches are clear. If you are a large non-union company trying to accomplish an aggressive construction schedule at this time, "good luck" probably won't be enough to succeed. I guess....here.....market forces are working the way you like. Except that the construction labor shortage here is making it unlikely you will find any real skills in locations other than the union halls.

In the nearly five years I have been on this project and living in the greater Seattle area, I have seen construction pickets one time. And they were not on my site. In fact, they were at a concrete batching plant. Where a very large international employer thought it would be cute to give Labor a black-eye.

Supe, you enjoy portraying yourself as educating the ignorant, who simply refuse to listen. But your education is a wee bit biased. In your area, all large contractors are union. So the union essentially has a monopoly on construction labor. Pretty easy to make your case, especially since the high cost of union labor would make it very difficult for a new company to establish, not to mention the intimidation they would have to endure by hiring non-union workers. So essentially, the unions all but guarantee that they won't be contested.

You also make the mistake of portraying union workers as being the only option for experienced, trained, and licensed workers. Funny how I can walk onto a jobsite in KS and find any number of hard working and licensed non-union workers. These companies all seem to do quite well, and perform quality work. Impossible I suppose.

Yeah but you have remember that those non-union, guys only make the wages that they are worth based on their education/experience. How fair is that? Unions guarantee college degree wages for skilled laborers. (in all seriousness, I don't mean any disrespect for a skilled laborer, I just don't think the union pay-scale is quite right compared to the rest of the business world). I often wish I made that kind of money with my lowly associate degree in engineering ;):D)

Ouch! I stopped 1 semester short of graduation to earn those union wages.:) I don't regret it. I also agree with some who have posted above that the wages are not the issue. While there are exceptions, union wage isn't going to buy someone a lake house. The real problem is the issue I'm dealing with - unreasonable practices on the part of union officials and their reps. I rarely have an issue with the guy holding the tools.

I'm in a somewhat unique situation to say that you are all correct. Depending on where you are, your experience with the union will vary. I believe that the union can be a near utopian experience (really!) that Superman describes. He's right. The skilled labor pool is a huge benefit as is the training and large job experience - in some areas. In other areas, the heavy handed, thug like extortion for little benefit is the flip side of the union coin.

More after dinner......:)

Keith:
PM'd you.
Jack

I think each union could be plotted on a bell curve. left to right = time. Bottom to top = union value within society. They started out small and focused on workers rights. With time they grow. They became more organized, efficient, and powerful. At the top of the Bell curve they are what Superman is describing - well trained tradesmen who take pride in what they do and actually, dollar for dollar, are money well spent vs their less skilled non-union counterparts. Unfortunately, with time other factors creep in to undermine the union - greed, corruption, slow work periods, dilution of skilled tradesmen with "white paper" trash (unskilled labor used in busy times) etc. That brings us to Chicago - the end of the Bell curve. Overpriced. Fat. Corrupt. A very bad value overall compared to even trained Monkees and they smell even worse.

When I joined the electrical union years ago, it was the top of the curve in Milwaukee. In my tenure I saw it slide a bit. Milwaukee got very busy and hired on non-union electricians to keep up with the work load. The busy period lasted a long time and, unfortunately, the "back door" electricians moved up the books to the extent that they were our "equals" referal wise. That diluted the union skill level. You were no longer assured that you were getting a union trained electrician but you can rest assured, you paid the same. Also, these individuals seemed more willing to compromise union rules such as working "10 for 8" and bringing prints home for extra curricular study (frowned upon by the bretheren). It's no surprise that these folks ended up being selected often as foremen because of their willingness to, as they say, suck a**.

I'll jump on that. My answer might be different than Supe's. The union has a proven, and standardized training program. It is very good. Some non union shops have training - some don't. No standardization and therefore no guarantees. Of course it would be wrong to suggest that a non union tradesman can't be as good as a union one. Pride, training, and aptitude make the craftsman, union or not. I have worked with some non union electricians who were excellent and some union ones who suck. But, overall, it's the standardized training that sets the union - as a whole - apart from non union.

I'll also disagree with Supe on the big job union theory. I have been on some very large (relative I suppose - hospitals in this case) non union jobs. Some are run very well - some not so much. Same with union jobs. I do wonder where non union shops source their labor. There'san Electrical Contractor called Town and Country here in Wisconsin. In their heyday, they were the biggest shop in the midwest. They were quite adept at the biggest of jobs much to the chagrin of the union.

Very true, Andras. And in fact labor unions are changing. Again, I fully agree that many union antics are unfortunate for everyone. But in the meantime, they have developed a bad reputation. And they have lost market share. They are responding. Believe me, they are. Nation-wide. The Carpenters' union especially, but others as well. Their agenda is to take much better care of the contractor. There are a lot of details, and changes are difficult, but there is definitely a broad and dynamic movement afoot.

The car died, Andras. I was sitting at a stoplight when a Dodge 1500 Quad smacked me in the butt. The car is probably bent too badly to repair. Not cost-effective, they say. I still have it, and will transfer parts to the new SC (a '79 Euro in Polar Silver). It is truly hard for me to come to grips with the notion that there is one less Smoky Quartz Metallic 911 in the world now. Don't be surprised if I strip one and paint it that color, to restore that balance in the Universe.

Hi Super,

On a slight skew of the thread, we architects are stuck with a carpenter mentality that says that they (the bulding industry) will never go metric beause the carpenters would have too many tools to change out.

So here are some "facts":

1. The standard measurement of the construction industry is 6" and its multiples. The standard measurement of the metric system is 15 cm, and its multiples. Gues what? They are almost equal in length.

2. Thus, in the USA, a stair is about 6" high; in metric it's 15 cm high. The tread is 11-12" wide, in metric it's 28-30 cm wide.

3. A counter top is 24" deep; in metric it's 60 cm deep. That wasn't so hard, was it?

4. How do you know that a door height is 6'-8"? You memorized it!!!! The door height in metric is 2.0m? Is the number 2 so difficult to memorize?

5. I am 6'3" tall. How do I know? Did I measure myself? No, a doctor or a school nurse or someone measured me, and told me. Therefore, I memorized it. In metric, I am about 190 cm tall. I think I can memorize that!!!

6. a 4x8 sheet of plywood is 4'-0" x 8'-0". The metric size is 120 cm x 240 cm.

And finally, do a hammer, a screw driver, a saw, a drill, a crow bar, a nail, a screw ( the metal kind, you bad boys!), and all the other tools of a carpenter or tradesman, have to be changed out. NO, unequivocally, NO. Only the tape measure needs to, and you can buy a tape measure with metric on the top and English on the bottom, made by Stanley (an Americqn company in New Haven Conn.) at Home Depot for about $10. Does that sound like costly change?

So why doesn't the construction industry go metric, when the electronics industry has, the automobile industry (in fact, all American autos have metric fasteners (except for rivets, which are non-metric or even non English), the aviation industry has, the specialty scientific instruments have, etc. etc. etc.

What are we waiting for?

Interesting question. In Canada we have largely moved to metric, spedometer in Km/h, temperature in Celsius etc. but when I go to the Home Depot I buy a 2x4 or a 4x8 sheet of plywood.

Actually you don't buy a 2x4 you buy a 1.5 x 3.5. Sometimes it is 1 5/8 x 3 5/8. No real standard, close is all that counts. Forget about it being staight and true.

4x8 sheets of plywood are fairly close to size except that 1/2" thick is really 15/32.

The Federal Courthouse which was recently built in St. Louis was all metric. It was a learning curve but not that big of a deal.

The problem is most of the construction workers think in the form of liquid measurement.
12 oz. at a time.

Rivets are measured in fractions of an inch.
IE: AN426A6-7 is 6/32" diameter x 7/16" long.
I wish the FAA would tell me these things. I've been in the aviation business for 12 years and my vendors are still shipping all my fasteners in US sizes.

this is the most ironically humorous thing I have read here yet

I work for an aircraft company, nothing we do is metric.

Especially considering what Supe does for a living.

What would that be, pray tell.

That strike was from Glacier refusing to sign the new payrate increases for the Concrete union. It the first time ever for Stoneway concrete to go under strike under Gary Merlino. It always comes close, but this time it happened.

Hung up the whole industry for weeks with that stunt. Jobs were backordered and construction halted in a lot of places while they waited for this nonsense to end.

My buddy is a 20 year employee of Stoneway, and I can attest that his income hasn't gone up with the cost of living. He was considered well off 10 years ago, now he's just getting by. From what I gather the Union that represents him isn't out of control like some.

rjp

Yeah, I've heard the bit about Superman being arrogant. Whatever. The typed word is missing a great deal of information. 80%, they say. Nobody in my personal or professional life has ever accused me of being arrogant. Further, I notice there are people who see things in black and white, and those who only see shades of grey. Guess where I fall. I see only shades of grey. My answer to everything begins with "It depends....." Enough about that. You guys form your own conclusions. I think we can agree I am not thin-skinned.

All generalizations are false. (I love that one) There are some very good non-union workers and companies. There is one company here in the Seattle area that is fairly large and non-union. The workers' pay and benefits are equivalent to union. But the most impressive thing to me, and the most important, is that those workers have never felt they needed union representation. I cold be persuaded to work for a company that takes its labor relations that seriously.

Here's an observation that will probably burn Matt's butt a bit, that's also an illustration of aspects of my input here: New Orleans. There was a hurricane there a while back, and the City is a mess. Big mess. Colossal mess. New Orleans is remarkably non-union. One of two things will happen to NO. Either it will remain a mess for a very long time, taking forever to rebound and become a noteworthy city again.....or union labor will rebuild it. Prevailing wages there are a joke. So is, sadly, the work ethic. Recently, a construction union went there and recruited trainees. Hundreds turned out. From those hundreds, several dozen were selected for training. Training to become a trainee. After weeks of that, a call came in for trainees. They picked the eight most motivated, most skilled workers and sent them out. Two of them showed up at the job site.

The best construction companies I have dealt with (the large, local non-union company I described above is not on my projects) wouldn't consider doing a project without close partnering with the local unions. Wouldn't be interested if they couldn't do it that way. One of them will come to my weekly meeting tomorrow morning with the union reps. They will lay out their schedule, agenda, plans, guesses, concerns, needs, expectations, worries.....etc. Labor will circle the wagons for this company. They will bend over backwards, if necessary. They will make this contractor successful. Guaranteed.

I have a great job.

Matt and Cashflyer,

You can't possibly believe that Airbus, Embraer, Bombardier, etc. use English-value fasteners!!!!!!!?????

Do you really think that the airlines that have Airbuses have two sets of tool boxes, one for Boeing and one for Airbus?

Again, if England (which started all these problems for the rest of the world), and Canada can have viable economies using the metric system, why are we the last country standing?

Here is a test: Divide 15' 3-7/32" by 4. Now, how much easier is it to divide 457 cm by 4?

And there you have the reason why American products will not succeed in the world market until we convert.