The gang problem in America

[scottmandue]

Disclaimer: This thread is about organized crime, not about racial profiling

Didn't want to hijack the other thread so I thought I would start a new one.

Originally Posted by scottmandue

We really need to do more about the gang problem in this country, we don't take them seriously enough. They are organized on a local, national, and international level and need to be dealt with (severely).

Watched a special on TV the other night, I think it was "Gangland USA" or something like that... very disturbing. Basically it talked about the racial division between black and Hispanic gangs. Whereas the black gangs are divided into several large groups (crips, bloods, and others) however the Hispanic gangs all answer and pay taxes to the "Mexican mafia".

The problem as I see it is a city puts together a "gang task-force" and they do a good job finding out who the players are and start catching them at their game and lock them up. However as soon as the gang crime number start to drop because of their good work they break up the task-force and assign them to some other duty. I think the problem deserves a full time anti gang unit to deal with the problem.

At the same time we need to have programs to keep kids out of gangs. Kids growing up in the inner city need protection and if it is not provided by the community they will join a gang to get it. We also need to provide them with education options so joining a gang to become a drug dealer (in the hood anyone caught dealing drugs who is not in the gang will be taken care of) is not the only lucrative job option.

Comments?

[Joeaksa]

Agree and there are parts of my town that I simply will not go after dark, and usually do not go there even during the day unless I have a really good reason to be there.

You guys on the East and West coast have it more so than the rest of us do but they are moving all over the country to establish their terrority. The gangs need to be stopped and the sooner the better IMHO.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Great, we can establish a "War on Gangs" just like we have a "War on Drugs" and a "War on Terror". That'll be sure to get 'em quaking in their boots! Just look at how successful the wars on drugs & terror have been!

In all seriousness, yes this is a problem. The gangs know how to beat the system at its own game by exploiting the fact that the cops are fighting the battle with one arm tied behind their backs because of political correctness. Half the time, they can just cry that surveillance and crackdowns are "racially motivated" and find some bleeding-heart judge to agree with them. It's ridiculous. You hear about it happening all the time around here.

The facts are pretty clear - gangs thrive in poor black neighborhoods, poor hispanic neighborhoods. Start there. If the black & hispanic communities don't like it, then tell 'em to start doing something about it (neighborhood watch, tipster reports, etc.) These groups do not help themselves by sitting on their hands and doing nothing while the worst members of their societies get the most attention. It's the same phenomenon we see in the Islamic world - the ROW thinks the entire Muslim world is nothing but a bunch of terrorists and suicide bombers because the rest of them do NOTHING to stop the problem or reign in the extremists. Maybe this is a politically incorrect position to take, but I think it's just simple common sense and brutal honesty. I'd raise holy hell if I knew a bunch of white supremacist/KKK guys moved in next door because like it or not - if I do nothing, I and the rest of my neighborhood becomes GUILTY BY ASSOCIATION. Right or wrong, that's how it works. As such, I'd keep close watch on them and the second they so much as jaywalked or tore the tags off their mattresses, I'd have it reported to the cops. That's the kind of attitude that these other communities need to adopt, not the "well, he's had a rough life and he's 'one of us' since he's from the same 'hood, so I'll just keep quiet and lie low so as to not cause trouble" attitude that seems to flow from the poorer 'hoods.

No easy solution, but I agree the problem needs heavy-handed and overwhelming response, unburdened by politically-correct-restrained platitudes spewed from useless politicians and bureaucrats.

[Mule]

Maybe I should start a poll. What do you think generates the bulk of these guys revenue?

[lendaddy]

Without getting into the right/wrong of it, I cannot believe we don't see more vigilante justice. It's not like it's hard to spot the trouble makers.

[Sapporo Guy]

Ok,

I'm with Jeff and Mule on this one.

Drugs and the profits that they make = bling. Just like I mentioned in the other thread that I think this came from.

I mentioned the broken window syndrome before.
It's basically where if for example a car is left abadoned more than like nothing will happen to it until somebody breaks a window. From there all hell breaks loose and you'll end up with just the chassis after a few days.

Same for neighborhoods, poorly unkept areas will just lead to more run down buildings and such.

I agree with Jeff because people need to do something. They can't expect somebody to do it for them because even if somebody did something for them everything will end up where it started -- back to the same-o-same-o

Cops and anti-gang taskforces are good for keeping the problem limited and smaller in scope but it still comes down to the community. If they don't want it ... why do it?

I think that maybe part of the problem can be related to all the aid that we give to other countries too. Why can't more money be funneled into our communities and cities to provide jobs, training, services, free medical, free schooling?

Another step will be to attack the media and hollywood. I'm sorry but shows like Cops just don't help.

Why can our neighbor Canada have more guns per person than America and only have 1 shooting per 5 years??????
What makes our 2 countires so different that America seems like a 3rd world underdeveloped country ????
Why can you basically walk up to somebody's door in Canada and open it and holler "are you home?" ????
What happened to the times when you could leave your car keys in the ignition and front door open for days without having to worry ???? (Yes, I still remember those days and i'm only 38!!! )
Why aren't our Presidential candidates talking about real issues that affect our daily lives instead of spouting silly good feeling speaches ????

American pride is worthless when you are becoming a prisoner in your own home!
Gated communities, sensor lights, car alarms, mace/pepper/taser guns ... scared ****tless to ride the public transportation ... this list goes on folks!

1 solution is not going to work. This is a problem that has weaved itself into the fabric of society and our judicial system being "kind" is not going to help anybody besides those who shouldn't be helped.

No, the US isn't all that bad and really hasn't hit the bottom yet, but, it's like global warming if we don't do something soon things are going to get even worse.

Anybody interested in creating OCP ??? You will make a bundle

[alf]

Simple,
Provide good education for all.
Get caught dealing or smuggling drugs, you hang.
Get caught using drugs you go into mandatory cold turkey detox till you are detoxed.
Use drugs recreationally? Stop.

[Rick Lee]

Most effective solutions are not politically acceptable. Since most violent crimes are committed by recidivists, having a serious mandatory minimum and no parole for first violent offense would keep the real criminals off the street longer. Slaps on the wrist only work with otherwise good kids who made a mistake. Gang bangers are immune to them.

[Tobra]

Originally Posted by lendaddy

Without getting into the right/wrong of it, I cannot believe we don't see more vigilante justice. It's not like it's hard to spot the trouble makers.

There is some vigilante justice going on already, my wife got hassled by some road rager guy, who forced her to a stop, went up and started beating on her window and threatened her in front of the wrong group of Norteno guys. She is reaching for her piece when about a half dozen big guys got out of their car and approached.

They subdued the guy, made him apologize to my wife for cursing at her and said they would "teach him better manners" Usually they sell drugs and shoot at each other though

[island911]

Originally Posted by Mule

Maybe I should start a poll. What do you think generates the bulk of these guys revenue?

Oh, I get it ... if drugs were legalized, gangs wouldn't form as they wouldn't find ANY other way of shaking money out of people.

[scottmandue]

RE: "The community has to take responsibility" I agree... however I think it is fair to say the have the community held hostage... how do expect a hard working mom and dad with two kids to go up against a dozen heavily armed gang bangers? Are people in the hood tight lipped because the gangsters are "one of us" or because if they rat them out the minute the cop cars leave the neighborhood their house will be burnt down or riddled with bullets?

This is why I think this has to taken care of on a professional level. Gangsters by definition live a high profile, high risk lifestyle and if we had full time law enforcement unit watching them they will eventually mess up, get caught, and thrown in jail.

This is not a new idea... it has been tried and worked... I just don't understand why they don't get that the gang problem is here to stay so we need a full time group of people working on it. Sort of like if you didn't have a fire in your neighborhood for a few years you shut down the local fire department.

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by lendaddy

Without getting into the right/wrong of it, I cannot believe we don't see more vigilante justice. It's not like it's hard to spot the trouble makers.

There is probably more vigilante justice going on, but these guys are not going to call the cops and report it.

Notice that there does not seem to be a lot of it in areas where citizens are allowed to legally carry a pistol. They are not that stupid and realize that legally armed citizens shoot back.

[Mule]

Originally Posted by alf

Simple,
Provide good education for all.
Get caught dealing or smuggling drugs, you hang.
Get caught using drugs you go into mandatory cold turkey detox till you are detoxed.
Use drugs recreationally? Stop.

Careful there killer! Crack down real hard & the number of people involved will go down. But the ones that are left will be people that you and everybody else, really doesn't want ot deal with.

[Mule]

Originally Posted by island911

Oh, I get it ... if drugs were legalized, gangs wouldn't form as they wouldn't find ANY other way of shaking money out of people.

So if it were not for prohibition, were would the mob have gotten the money to build Vegas?

[Mule]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

Most effective solutions are not politically acceptable. Since most violent crimes are committed by recidivists, having a serious mandatory minimum and no parole for first violent offense would keep the real criminals off the street longer. Slaps on the wrist only work with otherwise good kids who made a mistake. Gang bangers are immune to them.

The ONDCP in its 2000 annual report detailed administration requests for major increases in funding to the Federal Bureau of Prisons for drug-related prison construction. These include an extra $420 Million in fiscal year 2001, and advanced appropriations of $467 Million in 2002, and an additional $316 Million in 2003 - all drug-related.

The RAND Corporation study found that additional domestic law enforcement efforts cost 15 times as much as treatment to achieve the same reduction in societal costs.

According to the American Corrections Association, the average daily cost per state prison inmate per day in the US in 2005 was $67.55. That means it costs states approximately $16,948,295 per day to imprison drug offenders, or $6,186,127,675 per year.

Sounds like liberalism on the march to me.

[legion]

Originally Posted by island911

Oh, I get it ... if drugs were legalized, gangs wouldn't form as they wouldn't find ANY other way of shaking money out of people.

No, but the method they know and know well would evaporate overnight. A legal, taxed distribution system for drugs would make the revenue of gangs disappear overnight. Gangs would decline...for a while.

I have no doubt that something else could be found for criminal revenue--eventually. That could take decades, and be dealt with when it comes up.

[Mule]

It would be exactly like when prohibition was repealed. Gangs & gang warfare nearly disappeared.

[berettafan]

Originally Posted by Mule

The ONDCP in its 2000 annual report detailed administration requests for major increases in funding to the Federal Bureau of Prisons for drug-related prison construction. These include an extra $420 Million in fiscal year 2001, and advanced appropriations of $467 Million in 2002, and an additional $316 Million in 2003 - all drug-related.

The RAND Corporation study found that additional domestic law enforcement efforts cost 15 times as much as treatment to achieve the same reduction in societal costs.

According to the American Corrections Association, the average daily cost per state prison inmate per day in the US in 2005 was $67.55. That means it costs states approximately $16,948,295 per day to imprison drug offenders, or $6,186,127,675 per year.

Sounds like liberalism on the march to me.

What's the average daily cost of a state highway worker? Seems like there could be some efficiencies found here.

[berettafan]

Originally Posted by Mule

It would be exactly like when prohibition was repealed. Gangs & gang warfare nearly disappeared.

Yeah, and alcoholism, death at the hands of a drunk driver, etc. have been virtually non-existant.

[island911]

Originally Posted by legion

No, but the method they know and know well would evaporate overnight. A legal, taxed distribution system for drugs would make the revenue of gangs disappear overnight. Gangs would decline...for a while.

I have no doubt that something else could be found for criminal revenue--eventually. That could take decades, and be dealt with when it comes up.

I think that some are putting a bit too much on drugs being the sole source of gang activity.