selling serial # plates illegal?

[porsche930dude]

Iv got a few willys jeep serial number firewall tags from junkyard jeeps i want to sell on ebay. I see them on there often but usually there just listed as data plates. Is it illegal to sell them as serial # plates or what. Iv been reluctant to list them because im unsure what the deal is. Heres a listing similar to what ill be selling
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=021&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=310029869034&rd=1

[Dueller]

Penal § 170.70. Illegal possession of a vehicle identification number.
PART THREE SPECIFIC OFFENSES

TITLE K OFFENSES INVOLVING FRAUD

A person is guilty of illegal possession of a vehicle identification number when:

(1) He knowingly possesses a vehicle identification number label, sticker or plate which has been removed from the vehicle or vehicle part to which such label, sticker or plate was affixed by the manufacturer in accordance with 49 U.S.C. section 32101, et seq. and regulations promulgated thereunder or in accordance with the provisions of the vehicle and traffic law; or

(2) He knowingly possesses a vehicle or vehicle part to which is attached a vehicle identification number label, sticker or plate or on which is stamped or embossed a vehicle identification number which has been destroyed, covered, defaced, altered or otherwise changed, or a vehicle or vehicle part from which a vehicle identification number label, sticker or plate has been removed, which label, sticker or plate was affixed in accordance with 49 U.S.C. section 32101, et seq. or regulations promulgated thereunder, except when he has complied with the provisions of the vehicle and traffic law and regulations promulgated thereunder; or

(3) He knowingly possesses a vehicle, or part of a vehicle to which by law or regulation must be attached a vehicle identification number, either (a) with a vehicle identification number label, sticker, or plate which was not affixed by the manufacturer in accordance with 49 U.S.C. section 32101, et seq. or regulations promulgated thereunder, or in accordance with the provisions of the vehicle and traffic law or regulations promulgated thereunder, or (b) on which is affixed, stamped or embossed a vehicle identification number which was not affixed, stamped or embossed by the manufacturer, or in accordance with 49 U.S.C. section 32101, et seq. or regulations promulgated thereunder or in accordance with the provisions of the vehicle and traffic law or regulations promulgated thereunder.

Illegal possession of a vehicle identification number is a class E felony.


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[pwd72s]

I've been forbidden by a moderator here to discuss the subject...but here is a link to another enthusiast site:

http://www.boss302.com/legal.htm

Your decision...your risk

[Dueller]

Penal § 170.65. Forgery of a vehicle identification number.
PART THREE SPECIFIC OFFENSES

TITLE K OFFENSES INVOLVING FRAUD

A person is guilty of forgery of a vehicle identification number when:

(1) He knowingly destroys, covers, defaces, alters or otherwise changes the form or appearance of a vehicle identification number on any vehicle or component part thereof, except tires; or

(2) He removes any such number from a vehicle or component part thereof, except as required by the provisions of the vehicle and traffic law; or

(3) He affixes a vehicle identification number to a vehicle, except in accordance with the provisions of the vehicle and traffic law.

Forgery of a vehicle identification number is a class E felony.

[pwd72s]

Originally Posted by Dueller

Penal § 170.65. Forgery of a vehicle identification number.
PART THREE SPECIFIC OFFENSES

TITLE K OFFENSES INVOLVING FRAUD

A person is guilty of forgery of a vehicle identification number when:

(1) He knowingly destroys, covers, defaces, alters or otherwise changes the form or appearance of a vehicle identification number on any vehicle or component part thereof, except tires; or

(2) He removes any such number from a vehicle or component part thereof, except as required by the provisions of the vehicle and traffic law; or

(3) He affixes a vehicle identification number to a vehicle, except in accordance with the provisions of the vehicle and traffic law.

Forgery of a vehicle identification number is a class E felony.

I believe we're thinking alike on this subject...

[wrecktech]

They really frown on it in Indiana, not sure which level felony it is though. I would not sell them.

[Dueller]

PWD...actually the link you cited contains a case specific to NY that refers to the first statute I cited, upholding the validity of NY law as no superceded by federal law.

My opinion: Illegal under both NY state and federal law. The mere removal or possession of them is a felony.

[porsche930dude]

Alrighty then that answers my question. Thanks guys

[pwd72s]

Originally Posted by Dueller

PWD...actually the link you cited contains a case specific to NY that refers to the first statute I cited, upholding the validity of NY law as no superceded by federal law.

My opinion: Illegal under both NY state and federal law. The mere removal or possession of them is a felony.

Thank you. But like I said...

[mattdavis11]

Texas said mine wasn't even long enough to research prior history, lien etc..... I wonder how the hell they'd know if it was stolen? Maybe it is. Other states may be different though. I can't imagine why Texas would give a $hit if you peddled them, they're about as useful as a dead dog's tag. Strike that, you might be able to find the owner of said dog.

[Jeff Higgins]

They can be far more "useful" than you would think, Matt. The VIN would have to be from something "special" in some way. I don't know much about old Willys Jeeps, but I can imagine there are more or less desirable models that their fans are after.

A stray VIN tag becomes useful if you want to add value to a less desirable model. Take an early RS, for example. How many reproductions do we see? How much are they worth? Now, what if one is in possession of a set of original VIN tags, from a wrecked RS? If one does a good enough job on the reproduction, he can increase its "value" almost tenfold by the unscrupulous attachment of a set of little tin tags. It happens all too often. Why, rumor has it there are currently two Ferrari 250 GTO's with the same VIN - which one is "real"? Amazing what a little stamped metal tag can do, and what it will drive some folks to do.

[mattdavis11]

I didn't much try to make a point, but this (ebay) guy might be legally selling a data plate and so might 930dude if he chooses. My 1958 CJ 5 data plate doesn't constitute a VIN from what I've experienced. YMMV. I would need to look at the definition of a VIN in the transportation code prior to cementing my opinion. The penal code posted in this thread may not be applicable.

I do, however, see your point. I often don't think about things like that because I wouldn't deceive in that manner. It also doesn't really bother me that a fool and his money are soon to part, like the CJ 3B data plate buyer.

[Joeaksa]

I have a couple of these on my desk about a foot away from the keyboard.

Blank Data ID tags are common for airplanes and many aircraft mechanics have these for when a restoration is done and the ID tag is updated to show a new configuration. Ebay Item number: 170201604151 shows one for sale right now. We have done it for years.

An airplane is a "vehicle" (or so a lot of lawyers would argue) so this could be interesting. Yes, the law is oriented towards cars and trucks but wonder when some broke lawyer or DA is going to go after someone in the aviation community?

[id10t]

A 356 vendor/restorer here in Fl. sold a very early 356 cab data plate ('51 or '52 IIRC) - it was basically the only thing useful on the hulk he drug out of the woods. Sold on the bay for like $500, buyer mentioned on 356talk that he may one day make his own chassis, etc. and build a car up around the data plate...

[Dueller]

Originally Posted by Joeaksa

An airplane is a "vehicle" (or so a lot of lawyers would argue) so this could be interesting. Yes, the law is oriented towards cars and trucks but wonder when some broke lawyer or DA is going to go after someone in the aviation community?

Except for the fact that the federal statute (49 USC 32101) referenced in the state staute defines motor vehicle.

Stick to what you know, Joe Only time aviation indiustry catches the wrath of lawyers is when you maintenance folks can be blaamed for the crash of a lawyer killer (i.e., private aircraft)



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49 USC § 32101. Definitions
SUBTITLE VI - MOTOR VEHICLE AND DRIVER PROGRAMS

PART C - INFORMATION, STANDARDS, AND REQUIREMENTS

In this part (except chapter 329 and except as provided in section 33101) -

(1) "bumper standard" means a minimum performance standard that substantially reduces -

(A) the damage to the front or rear end of a passenger motor vehicle from a low-speed collision (including a collision with a fixed barrier) or from towing the vehicle; or

(B) the cost of repairing the damage.

(2) "insurer" means a person in the business of issuing, or reinsuring any part of, a passenger motor vehicle insurance policy.

(3) "interstate commerce" means commerce between a place in a State and -

(A) a place in another State; or

(B) another place in the same State through another State.

(4) "make", when describing a passenger motor vehicle, means the trade name of the manufacturer of the vehicle.

(5) "manufacturer" means a person -

(A) manufacturing or assembling passenger motor vehicles or passenger motor vehicle equipment; or

(B) importing motor vehicles or motor vehicle equipment for resale.

(6) "model", when describing a passenger motor vehicle, means a category of passenger motor vehicles based on the size, style, and type of a make of vehicle.

(7) "motor vehicle" means a vehicle driven or drawn by mechanical power and manufactured primarily for use on public streets, roads, and highways, but does not include a vehicle operated only on a rail line.

(8) "motor vehicle accident" means an accident resulting from the maintenance or operation of a passenger motor vehicle or passenger motor vehicle equipment.

(9) "multipurpose passenger vehicle" means a passenger motor vehicle constructed on a truck chassis or with special features for occasional off-road operation.

(10) "passenger motor vehicle" means a motor vehicle with motive power designed to carry not more than 12 individuals, but does not include -

(A) a motorcycle; or

(B) a truck not designed primarily to carry its operator or passengers.

(11) "passenger motor vehicle equipment" means -

(A) a system, part, or component of a passenger motor vehicle as originally made;

(B) a similar part or component made or sold for replacement or improvement of a system, part, or component, or as an accessory or addition to a passenger motor vehicle; or

(C) a device made or sold for use in towing a passenger motor vehicle.

(12) "State" means a State of the United States, the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico, the Northern Mariana Islands, Guam, American Samoa, and the Virgin Islands.

(13) "United States district court" means a district court of the United States, a United States court for Guam, the Virgin Islands, and American Samoa, and the district court for the Northern Mariana Islands.

(Pub. L. 103-272, Sec. 1(e), July 5, 1994, 108 Stat. 1034; Pub. L. 103-429, Sec. 6(27), Oct. 31, 1994, 108 Stat. 4380.)

[berettafan]

You shouldn't need the law to tell you playing games with vin plates, etc. is wrong.

[Dueller]

Originally Posted by berettafan

You shouldn't need the law to tell you playing games with vin plates, etc. is wrong.

Now if I'd charged him $500/hr he might think my advice was worthwhile

Hey Berretta...what have you found re: office sharing, etc.

[berettafan]

Funny you should ask (in my best Mr. Miyagi voice)!

I recently worked out a deal for shared office space for my fledgling property management company in a very visable location. Getting 1/3 of a large sign and use of existing staff so i don't have to spend all day on the phone. If this grows well it may be the basis for the acctg. practice. I've decided to wait until fall to start talking with atty's for the acctg. space. Reason being if I run into any conflicts w/ my current job I will be closer to tax season and thus cash flow.

I will also be checking with some brokers on the possibility of getting a HELOC set up for the purpose of paying bills as things get started.

If the property mgt. gig starts earning real money it will go a long way to pushing me over the edge on the acctg. gig.

[Dueller]

Originally Posted by berettafan

Funny you should ask (in my best Mr. Miyagi voice)!

I recently worked out a deal for shared office space for my fledgling property management company in a very visable location. Getting 1/3 of a large sign and use of existing staff so i don't have to spend all day on the phone. If this grows well it may be the basis for the acctg. practice. I've decided to wait until fall to start talking with atty's for the acctg. space. Reason being if I run into any conflicts w/ my current job I will be closer to tax season and thus cash flow.

I will also be checking with some brokers on the possibility of getting a HELOC set up for the purpose of paying bills as things get started.

If the property mgt. gig starts earning real money it will go a long way to pushing me over the edge on the acctg. gig.

Dueller on 2/21/08 @ 5:21 p.m.:
Since you plan to do small corp/sub S work and apparently have some clients that are going to "go with you" you may want to look around and see if they have a corporate office that has space. E.g., say you work for a construction company that has a "corporate headquarters" in an office complex away from their actual business site...they may have some space. But approach them with "I'm setting up my own firm...do you know of any available office space?" Or "How do you like your office space?" That gives them the opportunity to offer to sublet you some of their space and effectively have an in house CPA. However, be careful that you have your own autonomy so the public doesn't think you ARE only an inhouse CPA for them. Or perhaps you have clients that are actually in the business of commercial leasing. Or perhaps there is a commercial real estate broker that might have something...after all their clients would be looking at commercial props and your proximity may garner new start up companies as your clients.

Bottom line is think outside the box and keep your eyes open for something other than renting an office by yourself and hanging out a shingle.
Just a thought.


See...that's EXACTLY what I told you to do. Much cheaper than you thought it was gonna be, right? Certainly much cheap than opening up you own private space alone. What's your new address so I can send my bill?