Employment Advice

[msk1986911]

I've been with my current employer for just over 1 year. We have recently been informed that there are to be layoffs across the company, totaling approximately 2,300 out of a total population of around 36,000. We should know the outcome of the layoffs by the end of February. I've got an offer for similar work in a different industry (telecommunications) with a small company that employs about 500. 2 friends of mine work there and seem to like it. I am at a cross road and need some advice. Any thoughts regarding working for a small company versus a larger one? Any thoughts on the viability of the telecommunications industry? The company I currently work for is a large supplier in the marine and aircraft power industries (think UK based high-end luxury car brand, that no longer makes motorcars).

In any event, my gut tells me to stay put and ride this out for another 2 weeks. Unfortunately, the offer from the other company is only good through 2/19/08.

I am somewhat ambivalent about the offer and don't want to jump just to jump. Adding some complexity to my problem is the fact that my supervisor and I don't really see eye to eye, which was something of a catalyst in my looking for alternate work in the first place, since I don't see that situation changing or him moving on anytime soon.

The offer currently on the table is for 5% less than I currently make, although the difference is less than that since I would get more vacation, stock options and a higher employer match (35% versus 5%) on my 401K contributions. I have diminished the value of the stock options since their worth is subject to great change and they will not be vested all at once. Similarly, I have diminished the value of the 401K since I would not be fully vested for 6 years. Of the three "incentives" the vacation time has real value for me.

Thanks for reading; any comments will be appreciated.

[stomachmonkey]

Go.

It's not always about the money.

The experience can have much greater value than the money and could lead to a better paying gig down the line.

I like small co's. Usually you get to make a greater impact, have a loader voice.

[Groesbeck Hurricane]

Small company will give you more learning experience.

I interviewed with your company some time ago, did not have a great feeling when I was there. Lots of industries are going to be having downturns. Find out about the stability of the telecom, well run companies should ride this out.

[911Rob]

Go and talk to your present employer and tell them you have an offer to leave and in consideration that there's these mass layoffs coming down the pipe, you want their imput/counsil about leaving? See what they say. Can't hurt?

I think you'd love working for a small company (if 500 is small?), and telecom is a booming industry.

my vote: go for it.

[aigel]

You have to ask for an extension of the offer with the new company. That will put you in the driver's seat no matter what happens. Have you tried to ask for an extension? If that fails, read this:

- You have not been with your current company for very long. If you leave now, it will make you look like a flake to any future hiring manager, unless you have several long term jobs on your resume to compensate this.

- Since you don't "see eye to eye" with your boss, this may be mutual. Are the 6% layoffs in the company across the board? Does he have to pick a percentage of his people to let go? If that is the case, you may have a problem.

- Gauge the likelihood of you being cut at your current employer. Guess, if you have to. If it is over 20% likely that you are cut, you have no choice but to pre-empt. It won't look good if you bail after only a year on the job, but it will look a LOT worse if you get laid off after only a year, especially since the lay offs are not massive.

Hope this helps,

George

[aigel]

Originally Posted by 911Rob

Go and talk to your present employer and tell them you have an offer to leave and in consideration that there's these mass layoffs coming down the pipe, you want their imput/counsil about leaving? See what they say. Can't hurt?

I strongly disagree!

Let's play manager:

- If I had to lay off 6% of my workforce and a person in my group would come up and say they had an offer, I would tell them to take it. (Only exception if this was a crucial member of the team. If he was an average performer, even not on the lay off list, I'd let him go). I would reduce my workforce by one person without having to lay off. No severance package, no chance of him coming back to sue my company etc.!

- If I have to keep the employee because he's crucial, the relationship with the employee would be hampered: How loyal is this individual? I better get someone to replace him, since he is looking for a job, obviously. I can not have a guy like that in a crucial position, as he may jump sooner than later.


I think you get the drift. The only room to negotiate is with the NEW employer. The current employer should never hear anything about this, until the new company's offer is on the table and signed. You can do too much harm if your current employer learns you are shopping around!

George

[911Rob]

There you go then George, he takes the offer with the blessing of his present company.
dunn like dinna.

Time to move on and out, imo.

[aigel]

Rob,

- I would say "go for it" if it weren't for the short time on the current job.
- Asking the boss if you are on the list shows that you yourself are wondering if you are the right fit for the job. Again, you may not have been on the cut list but you will put yourself on it.
- On my last point, this does not apply, if a whole department may be affected. Then you may go ask your boss. I still wouldn't mention any offers. Non of their business.

Cheers,

George

[911Rob]

Hey George,
You're probably right buddy, I was just throwing some bones out....
I haven't had a job since my early 20's, so I'm no expert on this topic, that's for sure.

What did hit a note though was my son-in-law works in the telecom industry. He's been head hunted twice and done very well in that industry, lots of promotions, etc. I know he really enjoys it too. He's currently working for a big oil company taking care of their communication systems.

That's it; your posts are solid buddy.

[aigel]

Rob:

There are some fast paced industries. Maybe 1 year is a long time in msk1986911's line of work? But I doubt it. It may pay to jump ship quickly for a better offer like your son in law, but that seems not the case here. To jump quickly, you would need a good raise and a promotion along with better opportunity for growth.

As we know, the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence ...

I am probably too conservative, that's why I have to drive the normally aspirated 993.

Cheers, George

[911Rob]

Yeah, my picture is in the dictionary under 'change'.
(a few other not so nice words too, but you get the point)

I'm a changeaholic.

[morganb]

Ask the current company if they are looking for volunteers to lay off. Laying people off for some Managers is very tough. You may be able to volunteer, get the payout and go to the new job.

[Sapporo Guy]

He's being offered a job, so why would that hurt him eventhough he's only worked just over 1 year at the current place?

He did mention some better benefits in trade of the 5% salary cut.


Hey msk1986911, what does the wife/gf say? Is your partner supportive?

[msk1986911]

Many thanks for the replies. I agree that it is not just the money and that I need to look at the opportunities, present and future at either job. With my current employer, I am in a small regional office, with only about 35 employees, where I am a direct report to the office director. I don't see a lot of upward mobility at that location. Aspects of the job that I really like are the commercial (as opposed to US government) business as well as the international nature of the customer base and business opportunities. The offered job is largely US government based, which can be rather dry (I am a contract management type; reading through reams of FAR and DFAR clauses can get old pretty quickly).

As to my employment history, over the past 25 years, I have only worked for three companies. I was at the first for 17 years, the second for 7 and my current for 1. Based on that, I am not inclined to jump at the latest opportunity, which may explain my hesitancy.

My gut, at this point, tells me to stay put, unless I can determine what decisions have been made regarding layoffs as they may relate to me.

[djmcmath]

I'm a little biased, having been fired by a boss with whom I didn't "see eye to eye." I'd say if there's an opportunity to go somewhere else where there's reduced risk of layoffs and the potential for an improvement in the boss market, you're cleared for takeoff. I'm also a little inexperienced: while many of my friends have left the Navy and started successful careers, I'm just getting started on my first post-Navy job.

There are differing opinions regarding informing your current employer about possibilities of other jobs. One of my friends makes a point of being very open with his employers: "Listen, Boss, there's an offer on the table for a 10% raise at this other company. I like working here, but I'm going to have a hard time explaining to my wife why I turned down such a big raise. Can you match the raise, or should I leave?" So far, that's worked out well for him. When necessary, he's gotten good recommendations from previous employers because of his openness (and because he's smart, industrious, etc.).

As to time in a particular job, that's also variable. One of my other friends spent 2 years after leaving the Navy hopping from one job to the next. He spent a little time in school, and a huge amount of time loading his possessions into a trailer so he could move to the next job. He finally found something he likes, and is good at, and it's working out great for him. Despite his short term job list, his current employer doesn't seem to mind that at all. (shrug) I guess the principle seems sound, and you should plan on being at the next job for at least a couple of years to demonstrate that you're sound, responsible, etc.

Just my $0.02, and worth everything you paid for it.

Dan

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Go. The best move I ever made was turning down a huge promotion with my previous (400+ person) design firm and deciding to go be the senior guy (other than the owner) with a small, local, 8-man shop. I'm getting MUCH more hands-on here with respect to learning/knowing what it will eventually take to go into private practice on my own - which is my ultimate goal (2-3 years). If I'd stayed at the old place, I'd be a very well-compensated middle management guy in charge of about 10-12 architects and engineers, but that's about as far as I'd ever go with that company (above that level, it's all politics, not ability).

Best move I've made. No regrets, even though the money was better at the other place. Get outside your comfort zone and in so doing, expand it. I'm much less intimidated by the thought of hanging my own shingle outside a door somewhere and having it be just me, a desk and a phone. That's the reality of what it takes to open a practice - and I'm MUCH better prepared for it.

[msk1986911]

If for no other reason than to offset the recent spate of threads concerning "X" that only (or don't) date "Y" here is the update on my situation...the new suitor was able to meet my current salary with a slight edge in vacation time and 401k match. Given the mood at my current employer, I didn't see a choice other than to take the offer. I anticipate greater opportunity for upward mobility (my only option at my current employer would be, at some point (if ever), to move to God forsaken Northern VA or even more God forsaken MA (near Boston), neither of which fit my current family situation (2 kids, one in the 7th grade and another in 10th).

My start date is 3/10/08.

Thanks again for all your help.

Mike

[msk1986911]

Careful what you wish for...I have been at the new job for 3 weeks and am left to wonder if I made the right move (typical for me when making any "big" decision). I am definitely a stranger in a strange land, not liking it too well just yet. I have some regrets about how I didn't deal well with confrontation at my last job...should have dealt with it directly in an attempt to gain an understanding between my supervisor and me, instead of taking the passive aggressive route and just resigning. It's unlikely I would have been able to change his behaviors, although at least I would have tried to make things right.

At this point, all I can do is make the best of my situation and not dwell on the would have, could have, should have BS.: