Will Porsche be able to respond (enough)?

[artplumber]

Soo,
GTR 5 secs faster per lap around Buttonwillow than a 997 turbo....

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=31&article_id=6594

and

http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/download/0508_ct_GTRZ06911_chart.pdf

Back in the 30 yrs ago this kind of comparo was just an exercise. One wonders if the technological advances of all things automotive have essentially leveled the playing field. Will Porsche simply live on cachet? Does management even care? Discuss...

[the]

porsche is about profits per car, not seconds per lap.

[island911]

Pushing 4000 lbs I would expect the tires wouldn't last too many of those hot laps.

[the]

do you think the 997 being only 250 lbs lighter would make its tires last significantly longer, given the same use, than the GTR?

[kstar]

It's time to figure out a way to "add lightness", including all of required safety equipment, and do so at a reasonable cost. This is where the next performance automotive breakthroughs should be focused, IMO.

Best,

Kurt

[island911]

Originally Posted by the

do you think the 997 being only 250 lbs lighter would make its tires last significantly longer, given the same use, than the GTR?

A lower CG would help of course. As would wider tires. I suspect that the 997 has the lower CG, but don't know.

edit: ~6% less weight in the 997 ...they both have the same total rubber width.

[speeder]

Should have been a GT3 against those two cars, or maybe a GT2. And someone other than a Nissan factory driver doing the track times comparison. Other than that, a fair contest.

A 997 turbo is a heavy, luxurious GT car totally positioned for street over track use. The ZO6, and I assume the GTR are each companies' ultimate track weapon. Use Porsche's as well.

[livi]

I suspect the Japs have tampered with the numbers.

[Jim Richards]

Originally Posted by speeder

Should have been a GT3 against those two cars, or maybe a GT2. And someone other than a Nissan factory driver doing the track times comparison. Other than that, a fair contest.

A 997 turbo is a heavy, luxurious GT car totally positioned for street over track use. The ZO6, and I assume the GTR are each companies' ultimate track weapon. Use Porsche's as well.

This is exactly what I was thinking, too. I don't know the comparitive performance on the race track between a GT3 and a 997 Turbo, but I would think the GT3 is more in the spirit of the other two test vehicles, as Denis said.

[the]

Originally Posted by speeder

A 997 turbo is a heavy, luxurious GT car totally positioned for street over track use.

The GTR is also a heavy, luxurious GT car positioned for street use. In fact, even heavier than the 997.

[Jims5543]

I think R&T are looking more at the price tag than anything else.

I initially liked the GTR then I saw some pics of it next to previous generations, and even looking at the pics in that article it looks like a tank rather than a nimble sports car. That thing is huge and I just do not like how big it is.

Kurt +1

It's time to figure out a way to "add lightness", including all of required safety equipment, and do so at a reasonable cost. This is where the next performance automotive breakthroughs should be focused, IMO.

Lotus has done this with its Elise and Exige and other car companies need to design and produce a back to basics lightweight sports car that can go as fast as the big cars with lots less power and better fuel economy.

[HardDrive]

I hope Porsche responds by putting a 3.8 in a Cayman and mopping the floor with the GTR.

But they won't do that, because they don't have to.

People that want Porsches are going to buy Porsches. If you are simply in the market for the fastest thing for the least amount of $$$, then buy a corvette.

[look 171]

Lotus has done this with its Elise and Exige and other car companies need to design and produce a back to basics lightweight sports car that can go as fast as the big cars with lots less power and better fuel economy.[/QUOTE]

They wouldn't sell too many. Too many of us want muti. elec ports for various $hit we run while driving. We need the large screen tv in the center of the dash. Oh, don't forget the adj suspen. 9000lbs 15 way adj leather seats with heaters. On and on. I talk to some who claims they are a car guy. Many talked about how wonderful the amount of computer stuff they have in sports cars these days. they like all that auto ajdustable crap on there. I took someone our in my 00 S2000. First thing they say is "What? No Sat map sys. and no power seats for a 30k car".

[kstar]

I was hinting at giving folks all the conveniences . . . in a light package. That would be the bee's knees.

Best,

Kurt

[onewhippedpuppy]

I think we tend to forget that, in general, WE are not the ones buying brand new Porsches. Porsche USA doesn't make any money off of people who buy a 911SC, Carrera, 944, etc. In general, I'd be willing to bet that the buyers of new Porsches look at the prestige and the appearence of the car. How many rich trophy wives care about lap times?

For the rich enthusiast, new Porsches do still offer a great driving experience. The GTR is undoubtably fast, but I wonder if it gives the same experience as a GT3 or 997 Turbo? The GTR is about technology, but technology often times takes the driver out of the loop. All new cars, even Porsches, are guilty of this, some far more so than others.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by kstarnes

I was hinting at giving folks all the conveniences . . . in a light package. That would be the bee's knees.

Best,

Kurt

Do you have any idea how much heated power leather seats, sound deadening, air conditioning, power windows, etc weighs? The Elise/Exige is lightweight, but has the refinement of a go-kart. Without spending a fortune on exotic materials, it's damn near impossible to have both comfort and light weight. Even modern exotics are heavy by the standards of 20 years ago.

[Jandrews]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

I think we tend to forget that, in general, WE are not the ones buying brand new Porsches. Porsche USA doesn't make any money off of people who buy a 911SC, Carrera, 944, etc. In general, I'd be willing to bet that the buyers of new Porsches look at the prestige and the appearence of the car. How many rich trophy wives care about lap times?

For the rich enthusiast, new Porsches do still offer a great driving experience. The GTR is undoubtably fast, but I wonder if it gives the same experience as a GT3 or 997 Turbo? The GTR is about technology, but technology often times takes the driver out of the loop. All new cars, even Porsches, are guilty of this, some far more so than others.

+1.

A buddy of mine just bought an '06 997 C4S. It is a beautiful white thing with bodykit etc...stunning looking. But, he paid $90K+ for this car!! I begged him to spend that money on a used GT3 or at least a turbo, to get the benefit of the race-bred design. He heard me out, but in the end, he said he just like the looks and the newness of the styling and interior of the 997 C4S. Classic example of the visual appeal winning out for someone who is buying a nice street car to drive to work. He could have cared less about dry sump, blah blah blah. He wanted "new"!


JA

[kstar]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Do you have any idea how much heated power leather seats, sound deadening, air conditioning, power windows, etc weighs? The Elise/Exige is lightweight, but has the refinement of a go-kart. Without spending a fortune on exotic materials, it's damn near impossible to have both comfort and light weight. Even modern exotics are heavy by the standards of 20 years ago.

I agree 100%. That's why it would be revolutionary to have the conveniences and light-weight AND performance all at a reasonable cost.

I think it is a difficult proposition but not impossible.

The problem may be, as you previously stated, that there just isn't much demand for such a car. I would argue that fuel economy is more likely to drive light weight than performance, but would expect the exotics to lead with a "loaded" performance car which was also lightweight.

Are there any such beasts at car shows or as design studies?

Best,

Kurt

[Jims5543]

Originally Posted by look 171

They wouldn't sell too many. Too many of us want muti. elec ports for various $hit we run while driving. We need the large screen tv in the center of the dash. Oh, don't forget the adj suspen. 9000lbs 15 way adj leather seats with heaters. On and on. I talk to some who claims they are a car guy. Many talked about how wonderful the amount of computer stuff they have in sports cars these days. they like all that auto ajdustable crap on there. I took someone our in my 00 S2000. First thing they say is "What? No Sat map sys. and no power seats for a 30k car".

I know, your probably right.

I know when I purchased my 2003 Mini Cooper S JCW, I wanted to order it custom, I made sure there was no sunroof, no Nav, no fancy stereo etc... I kept the car as barebones and light as possible going further once it was delivered, I took off the run flat tires and heavy 17" rims and put on a set of 16" Kosai K1's with Falken Azenis tires. Then I put a set of custom Spax coil overs, the same used by John Cooper Garages in England.

I weighed the car after that and had it down to 2630 lbs. If I wanted to get crazy I could have easily shed another 200 lbs out of it, but at 2630 with 205HP I felt it was a pretty quick little car.

Only a track hound could appreciate what I did to that car.

Your typical car buyer today has to have tons of goodies in their cars in order for them to feel like they got a good deal, I was even kind of pissed my 1980 911 had heavy power windows and considered converting over to regular wind up windows.

I have that in the works right now for my RX7 and the sunroof is going bye bye too.

[DaveE]

My '78 SC is barebones; no sunroof, no power windows, no A/C. If I had the bucks and were buying new it would be the GT3. I don't see myself buying a Nissan, any Nissan. No matter how fast you go, someone will be gunning to go faster. It's an endless race. Porsche doesn't need to respond to Nissan, not the way this test was run.