War Death Perspectives

[M.D. Holloway]

...

[rcecale]

C'mon Mike! You know those 3990 death outweigh any other casualty count. They're Bush's fault!

Randy

[stevepaa]

need to compare apples to apples
1992-1996 Clinton
Total deaths - 4302

Due to accident - 2239
Due to hostile action - 1
Due to homicide - 288
Due to illness - 774
Self-inflicted - 906
Terrorist attack - 55
Undetermined/Pending - 37

2001-2004 Bush
Total deaths - 5187

Due to accident - 2109
Due to hostile action - 1102
Due to homicide - 181
Due to illness - 859
Self-inflicted - 632
Terrorist attack - 55
Undetermined/Pending - 258



and I think we have at least a third less in military now.

[Super_Dave_D]

Antietam - 20,000+ casualties in 12 hours!

[Rot 911]

I'm sure that makes the relatives of all the American military people killed in Iraq feel better.

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by stevepaa

and I think we have at least a third less in military now.

Yep, far fewer people in uniform after Clinton GUTTED the military in the early 90's. At least you are right no one part...

[M.D. Holloway]

Originally Posted by Kurt V

I'm sure that makes the relatives of all the American military people killed in Iraq feel better.

And how do the relatives of the other wars feel? Or the police killed in the line of duty everyday and what about those poor guys killed in the Conagra factory fire in Arkansas?

Ya, I can see the connection

[island911]

Originally Posted by Kurt V

I'm sure that makes the relatives of all the American military people killed in Iraq feel better.

Yeah, I can see that. For a soldier, or his her family, it's better to die fighting for a country/cause that you care about than just sitting on your ass waiting.

[techweenie]

Okay, so under the first 5 years of Clinton, there was one military death by hostile action?

And that compares to 1102 under GWB?

Neither count tells the whole story. Deaths from the action in Afghanistan resulted from defending the safety of the US. Deaths from the action in Iraq were pointless.

The missing number is the combat-related serious injuries requiring continuing care. IIRC, the number is over 20,000 during the Bush 2 administration. And the per-soldier VA funding is down under Bush 2.

[kach22i]

Over 30,000 left in bits and pieces from IED's...........................if you know this war, and you know someone close to you effected, you know the tragedy of it all.

No time for partisan jeering.

These are our guys and gals laying broken, take care not to diminish it.

[M.D. Holloway]

Its not diminishing it, rather putting things into perspective. No one is saying that these folks are marginalized nor will anyone in their right mind reduce this down to kill rates and numbers.

What we should consider is that the media has taken a run at this war and sensationalized it to the point that it is considered one of the worst events that has occured in modern history. It is not.

I seem to remember that there was a full majority that gave the thumbs up for this - the house and the hill.

[kimlangley7]

I "did" Cambodia in 1973 on my nickel.... paid for my own ticket to the war..... sold my skis and my Yamaha DT250 motorcycle..... just to "experience " the war..... I was young... 23 and a journalism major....

I did Kuwait/Iraq in 1990/1991.... as a reserve civil affairs officer > good gig > Helped restart the Iraq telecomm and power infrastructure > goodness > we helped them [Kuwaitis get their stuff up and running quickly]...

I did Bosnia in 1996..... helped the Bosnians in Sarajevo get the telecomm and electrical power up and running...

I did OIF-1 > Iraq in 2003.... and it was a goat fuc** .... we > DOD , State ... the US govt didn't really plan for it... and it was a goat - fuc** ......

I revert to the scene in Platoon > where the [booze] plt sgt says > what do you know about dying?

I say to you [porsche drivers] who have not been in combat > nothing personal guys > but you don't have a dog in the fight... you don't know what its like ... so your opinion is worthless...

Just like my opinion of driving a GT3... > I've never driven much except my SC..... so have no valid input.....

It's just a very bad war .... and we need to bring our kids back home....

In my opinion >> the Iraqis are not worth our kids blood....

[island911]

...so then it was a 'good war' in Cambodia in 1973 ?

Was it the 'Killing fields' that made it good for you? . . . genocide of 1.7 to 2.3 million out of a population of around 7 million.

Do you think that Iraq can be made better too? ...by us withdrawing and leaving a vacuum.

[techweenie]

Originally Posted by kimlangley7

I say to you [porsche drivers] who have not been in combat > nothing personal guys > but you don't have a dog in the fight... you don't know what its like ... so your opinion is worthless...

Just like my opinion of driving a GT3... > I've never driven much except my SC..... so have no valid input.....

It's just a very bad war .... and we need to bring our kids back home....

In my opinion >> the Iraqis are not worth our kids blood....

Thanks.

I think I have a right to my opinion that sacrificing lives is something that should be done when the security of the nation is at stake, not when it's the mission or whim of a bunch of draft dodgers and shirkers, even when they are in the white house.

You'll note that the most vehement war supporters here didn't bother to volunteer to go to Iraq, with one or two exceptions.

And oh, if it matters to anyone, the statistics in the initial post are wrong. Just another phony email concotion from the disinformation factory on the 'right.'

Always visit Snopes before posting that "factual" political email.

[pwd72s]

Anybody here watch the HBO WWII series, "Band of Brothers"?

In the cue ball, Salem, Oregon, you can often find an old guy, a friend of the owner. He doesn't shoot much pool these days, but is a killer backgammon player. Walks with a cane.

He is well respected by all who know. And I'd say he's the toughest SOB in the pool hall. He's poven it!

Donald Malarkey is his name. He parachuted in during D-day, from there, went all the way until the war ended. Battle of the bulge in Mike's graph? Yep, that was part of the war that Malarkey saw...Yes, this is the real life "Malarkey" portrayed in the movie.

Good thread Mike...puts things in a historical perspective.

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by kimlangley7

I "did" Cambodia in 1973 on my nickel.... paid for my own ticket to the war..... sold my skis and my Yamaha DT250 motorcycle..... just to "experience " the war..... I was young... 23 and a journalism major....

I did Kuwait/Iraq in 1990/1991.... as a reserve civil affairs officer > good gig > Helped restart the Iraq telecomm and power infrastructure > goodness > we helped them [Kuwaitis get their stuff up and running quickly]...

I did Bosnia in 1996..... helped the Bosnians in Sarajevo get the telecomm and electrical power up and running...

I did OIF-1 > Iraq in 2003.... and it was a goat fuc** .... we > DOD , State ... the US govt didn't really plan for it... and it was a goat - fuc** ......

I revert to the scene in Platoon > where the [booze] plt sgt says > what do you know about dying?

I say to you [porsche drivers] who have not been in combat > nothing personal guys > but you don't have a dog in the fight... you don't know what its like ... so your opinion is worthless...

Just like my opinion of driving a GT3... > I've never driven much except my SC..... so have no valid input.....

It's just a very bad war .... and we need to bring our kids back home....

In my opinion >> the Iraqis are not worth our kids blood....

Good post, thank you for the comments.

[Danimal16]

There are good discussions on each side of the coin. But how we got into this mess, is for a later discussion. I think the Iraqi people are worth it. BUT our challenge is not f***ing up our departure and not f***ing the Iraqis any further. There are many things in the balance, saving face for the US, F that. We need to deal with the reality of what we are in at this point and time and make it right. It is going to take some hard work and some good minds to unF this but it can be done. Pulling out lock stock and barrel is not the answer, so Pelicanites why not look at putting the entire collection of brainpower on these forums toward a discussion of how we get out. That is the challenge. (IMHO)

[cool_chick]

Originally Posted by LubeMaster77

...

Clintons years versus Iraq war? haha

More accurate comparison would be Clinton years versus Bush years or Iraq war versus Bosnia....

[aap1966]

Originally Posted by kimlangley7

I say to you [porsche drivers] who have not been in combat > nothing personal guys > but you don't have a dog in the fight... you don't know what its like ... so your opinion is worthless...

We wouldn't presume to know what it is like, but if our kids are involved we have an obligation to try to know what it is like.

Care needs to be taken in the arguement that unless one has experienced war one cannot have a valid opinion of, or (in the case of a political leader) initiate, military action. The logical conclusion to that negates the concept of civilian control of the military, which is an essential cornerstone of Western democracies. Are we who have never served obligated to hold no opinion regarding war? Would you argue that those of us not police officers can hold no opinion about criminal justice?
I have never lost a child. I (pray God) will never know what that is, but it doesn't mean I can have no empathy, or seek to understand, or care.

Support the war, or object to it. That's your right. Your obligation is to at least think about it. War is too important for the vast majority of the population to be obligated to simply shrug and have no opinion.

[Danimal16]

Originally Posted by aap1966

We wouldn't presume to know what it is like, but if our kids are involved we have an obligation to try to know what it is like.

Care needs to be taken in the arguement that unless one has experienced war one cannot have a valid opinion of, or (in the case of a political leader) initiate, military action. The logical conclusion to that negates the concept of civilian control of the military, which is an essential cornerstone of Western democracies. Are we who have never served obligated to hold no opinion regarding war? Would you argue that those of us not police officers can hold no opinion about criminal justice?
I have never lost a child. I (pray God) will never know what that is, but it doesn't mean I can have no empathy, or seek to understand, or care.

Support the war, or object to it. That's your right. Your obligation is to at least think about it. War is too important for the vast majority of the population to be obligated to simply shrug and have no opinion.

That is very well said. If anything our founding fathers did was put the civilian commander in chief to do just that, have civilian control of the government. I concur with all of your thesis. But IMHO folks forget their responsibilities to speak out prior to committing troops. When one thinks of how heavy a responsibility it is to decide the question of war, it should sink in. That is not to say that, regrettably sometimes war must be fought. FOLKS NEED to weigh the question prior to the decision and scream like hell if they are opposed or support such a decision.

One thing I have a problem with is after the decision is made, I have a real intolerance of those that act like a bunch of spoiled brats and publicly aid and comfort our enemy once troops have been committed. Protesting the war in this manner emboldens our enemies and gets our kids killed, period, no doubt about it. However, that does not mean that I don't say there should be decent, but in the form of political workings that are not so subversive. The blood of many Soldiers are on the hands of those who demonstrate in such a manor. Read the history of what kept the communists going in indochina.

Now for those of you who hate war and are pacifists don't you dare shout me down, cause I got a challenge for ya. The State Department needs folks of many skills and trades to help get the infrastructure running. Positions pay up to 149K a year with about a 75% stipend and they pay your room and board. Is it dangerous? Can be, but Iraq needs folks to help them get the show running. SO before those of you who would castigate me, I say come here to Iraq as a peacemaker and walk the walk.

Anyway, signing off from Fallujah.