Spray cleaner and dry lube for polymer-frame guns?

[gtc]

I bought my first firearm, a Walther P22, earlier this year, and have probably put 3-4000 rounds through it. It's a great little plinker, but it can get pretty filthy with lead and plating from the Golden Bullet ammo I run through it.
The cleaner/oil crap from my kleenbore kit just seems to smear the dirt around, and work it further into the moving parts, so I've been thinking about sprays that could wash out the junk and evaporate afterwards, ala brake cleaner.
One of my local gun shops sell some plastic-safe stuff, but it's $14 a can. I figured it's just solvent, I could do better, so I picked up some plastic-safe MAF sensor cleaner from the autoparts store for $7.
It works like a charm - cleaning takes about 2 minutes and I can get into almost all the parts without full dissassembly. Now the gun is cleaner, smoother, and more quiet than ever. But now I was wondering if I should lube it up with some dry lube of some sort.
Any suggestions (or criticism of my MAF cleaner)?
Thanks,

[Jeff Higgins]

It is amazing just how dirty a .22 can get and continue to function. All the goo oozing out of it is a little disconcerting, but it really doesn't hurt anything. When it does come time to clean it, a thorough disassembly is usually in order. Just spraying it clean, even if partially disassembled, tends to wash the crud ever deeper down into the inner workings. In other words, either take it completely apart or don't bother. I lean towards the "don't bother" end of the spectrum with my .22's, even the one autoloader I own (an old Ruger 10-22). When I'm really actively shooting them, it's not unusual for me to run a brick a week through my favorites. Even at that rate, I might clean them once a year or so. If I'm really bored.

Cleaning them at that leisurely interval, you shouldn't worry much about the cost of solvents. My favorite for .22's remains the old Hoppe's #9, one of the oldest and cheapest out there. Any plastics in your gun will be impervious to this stuff. Any gun manufacturer would be foolish to employ materials that could be harmed by common gun solvents. So, spring for a bottle of Hoppe's and ditch the spray MAF sensor cleaner. I would be more worried about that stuff crazing the plastic than the good old Hoppe's.

Oh, and you would be surprised how many XXX regulars shoot. We have had several fun range days. Might be time for another one soon...

[competentone]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

My favorite for .22's remains the old Hoppe's #9, one of the oldest and cheapest out there. Any plastics in your gun will be impervious to this stuff. Any gun manufacturer would be foolish to employ materials that could be harmed by common gun solvents...

Hoppe's #9 eats the finish off my Saiga.

As for cleaning actions -- like that on the Walther P22 -- I'll sometimes wash them with water, or spray them with brake parts cleaner and blow them out with compressed air if they're really bad. But generally, I'll just spray them with WD-40, brush with an old toothbrush as needed, then repeat with WD-40 and compressed air until no more "gunk" comes out.

I usually finish with the compressed air so there is only a very thin film of oil remaining, then I'll often dust a little dry teflon lube which sticks to the oil film. The WD-40 and teflon film seem to be fairly effective in keeping new crud from sticking.

I've been experimenting with Turtle Wax's new "Ice" wax, but that's just been for protection on the external "handled" surfaces. The stuff is so slippery though, I'm going to start seeing how it works as a lubricant and "crud repellent" -- that is if I get around to getting to the range at some point!

[id10t]

The lube I use on all my guns (none are plastic framed) and what comes on Glocks from the factory is a copper graphite anti-seize lube.... I have a 1lb can of FelPro from a nuke plant, it has contaminants listed as parts per million... but it is basically the same stuff you get at a FLAPS, etc.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by competentone

Hoppe's #9 eats the finish off my Saiga.

Not surprising. I think it's a bit of a stretch to call anything applied to one of those a "finish". Certainly more of a comment on cheap ass Russian manufacture than on Hoppe's. I can't think of a single gun on which I have ever marred the finish using Hoppe's, and I have a fair number of them. American, British, German, Japanese, Italian, Belgian - they all hold up just fine. Even the cheapest of Daisy and Crossman BB guns. Gotta love that Russian "quality", I guess...

[Rot 911]

yep, hoppes #9 and a good bore brush.

[competentone]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Not surprising. I think it's a bit of a stretch to call anything applied to one of those a "finish". Certainly more of a comment on cheap ass Russian manufacture than on Hoppe's. I can't think of a single gun on which I have ever marred the finish using Hoppe's, and I have a fair number of them. American, British, German, Japanese, Italian, Belgian - they all hold up just fine. Even the cheapest of Daisy and Crossman BB guns. Gotta love that Russian "quality", I guess...

You're treading on dangerous territory with those comments!

You're looking for a "fight" if you start "bashing" Russian firearms, or demonstrating a serious lack of experience with Russian small arms.

If I was given the choice of having only one firearm to defend my life with, it would be a Russian-made AK.

[Rick Lee]

I think some gun stores will ultrasonically clean a handgun for you for under $20. If you just do it once in a while, this is probably the way to go.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by competentone

You're treading on dangerous territory with those comments!

You're looking for a "fight" if you start "bashing" Russian firearms, or demonstrating a serious lack of experience with Russian small arms.

If I was given the choice of having only one firearm to defend my life with, it would be a Russian-made AK.

Their functionality and utility is beyond question. However, unless you are talking an old milled receiver AK, the quality of manufacture, fit, and finish is deplorable. They are designed to be manufactured, deployed, and maintained under the worst of conditions. They succeded admirably. Problem is, I don't need a gun that is meant to meet those criteria. I use and enjoy firearms built to a higher level of fit and finish, that give up nothing in functionality under the conditions in which I will use them. I'm not in the military. I don't need to be burdened with some ugly, poorly finished rattle trap that I can at once beat some one over the head with, then use for leverage to pry my stuck Jeep out of the mud.

[gtc]

Thanks everyone for your responses.
One of my reasons for cleaning my P22 relatively often is that the slide is made of a pretty soft metal. From what I've read, and begun to notice with my gun, is that it wears a lot faster than the rest of the parts. My goal in using a spray to flush out the gun is to eliminate as many abrasive particles as posible.

Jeff, where do you usually shoot? We should definately make plans for a XXX Biathalon sometime.

Wow... that probably sounds weird to the non-PNW people out there...

[gtc]

I shot my buddy's Jennings .22 a few weeks ago... I'd like to see someone try to defend one of those!

[id10t]

gtc - no problem. polish the feed ramp with a dremel, use CCI stingers. I occasionally carried one in my back pocket, chamber empty and safety off.... after some dremel time, I was able to put 100 rounds thru it no problem... That said, for dirt cheap 22, the Phoenix Arms HP22 is pretty good, but over engineered for safeties...

[M.D. Holloway]

Send me your shipping address and I will send you out a few items that should work well for you.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by gtc

Thanks everyone for your responses.
One of my reasons for cleaning my P22 relatively often is that the slide is made of a pretty soft metal. From what I've read, and begun to notice with my gun, is that it wears a lot faster than the rest of the parts. My goal in using a spray to flush out the gun is to eliminate as many abrasive particles as posible.

Jeff, where do you usually shoot? We should definately make plans for a XXX Biathalon sometime.

Wow... that probably sounds weird to the non-PNW people out there...

We had been going to Wade's, but I'm lobbying for somewhere else. Wade's has a "no lead" rule, so that precludes my shooting anything but my .22. All of my centerfire sidearms shoot my own cast bullets only. Frustrating, because primers actually put more lead in the air than my cast bullets, but I can't (and won't) argue with them. It's their range. I just won't go there.

Sam's up here on Airport Road has no such silly rules. Several of us have met there after work on occasion. Kind of a drive for the XXX "southerners", but we could have some fun taking our normal route to breakfast in reverse, winding up back up here.

Interesting observation on the P22. I have no personal experience with them, so I will defer to yours. What do they use for the slide? Is it aluminum, or some very soft ferrous alloy? .22 fouling isn't very "gritty" per se; it's actually a pretty soft, sticky goo. It does, however, attract and hold potentially damaging, abrasive grit. You probably are better off keeping that one clean.

I always figure I'm just "lapping in" the old 10-22... That thing rode home from Bellevue to Kirkland with me in 1980, bungee corded to the back of my Harley, no case, no cover - right up I-405. Bought it at a pawn shop for less than a hundred bucks; it was pretty beat up then and hasn't improved much with age. It's had similar treatment its whole life, so cleaning isn't much of a priority.

[competentone]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

... on the P22... What do they use for the slide? Is it aluminum, or some very soft ferrous alloy?

It's aluminum alloy.

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

[on AKs] Their functionality and utility is beyond question. However, unless you are talking an old milled receiver AK, the quality of manufacture, fit, and finish is deplorable....I don't need to be burdened with some ugly, poorly finished rattle trap...

I really don't know of any other way to evaluate weapons than on their "functionality and utility" so I'm kind-of lost if a discussion on firearms turns to issues of "beauty."

That said, take a look at some of the Bulgarian AKs if you're looking for a better "looking" AK. Even the Saigas, mentioned earlier, are not manufactured to any standard where one could describe their "fit and finish" as being "deplorable."

A lot of people "turn up their noses" on some of the firearms coming from Eastern Europe/former Soviet-block countries because they think a low-priced gun is automatically a "cheap" gun. Such opinions are usually formed without any experience of actually having owned those firearms.

Try something like a Saiga, I'll bet you won't feel "burdened" owning it! (Especially considering the experience you describe with your 10/22.)

[Jeff Higgins]

I've seen and owned some beautiful Eastern Bloc guns, most notable a few Brno rifles. The Czechs have always made great guns, and I wouldn't hesitate to own another. The currently imported CZ's are about one of the best values out there.

I do own firearms where "functionality and utility" are the only considerations, like the 10-22 I mentioned, and a few waterfowling guns. The majority, however, are chosen as much for their aesthetic beauty, craftsmanship, accuracy, and pride of ownership. I like nice guns. I like accurate rifles and sidearms. Outside of just a few manufacturers of civilian fire arms, those criteria exclude just about everything coming out of the Eastern Bloc in general, and Russia specifically.

I also reload every center fire caliber I shoot. Tolerances on rifle, pistol, and revolver chambers play a huge role in my ability to do that. The chambers in Eastern Bloc military firearms are simply far to generous to be considered for reloading. Brass winds up getting worked far too much as it alternately gets blown out to fill those oversize chambers, then sized back down during reloading. I've been lucky to get two or three reloads in the few of these I've played with before the brass splits longitudinaly or suffers insipient head seperation.

That, and regardless of the care exercised in working up a suitable load for one of these, they are horribly innaccurate. I have never seen an AK (even an early milled receiver model a shooting buddy owned) group consistantly less than about 3 MOA, and the SKS darn near doubles that. Might be great for the unwashed masses of one communist country trying to kill the unwashed masses of another, but any sort of a rifleman quickly loses interest in that level of accuracy.

So, they are what they are. Right up there with the best military small arms ever produced; no doubt about that. I have a great deal of respect for what they are. But, through a civilian's eyes (one that hunts and is an avid match shooter and reloader) they are simply too rude and crude. Too poorly finished, too inaccurate.

[azasadny]

I use a bore snake, CLP and Gibbs lubricant to finish the cleaning. I ALWAYS clean my guns the same day they are fired.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by azasadny

I use a bore snake, CLP and Gibbs lubricant to finish the cleaning. I ALWAYS clean my guns the same day they are fired.

Black powder guns, absolutely. Cases too, if it's a cartridge gun. Smokeless powder, not so urgent. As a matter of fact, once my hunting rifles are fouled, they stay that way for the duration of the hunt to avoid the possibility of first round flyers from a clean bore. Some rifles are better than others that way, but I don't like taking chances with any of them. Rimfires get cleaned on a very loose schedule. Some, once cleaned, will not regain full accuracy until most of the first box has been fired through them.

Believe it or not, one can clean too much. A great deal of our diligence in cleaning our guns is a holdover from grandpa's day, when black powder or mercuric primers demanded immediate cleaning. Modern lead styphanate (or the even more modern lead free) primers and smokeless powders darn near render cleaning unecessary, but it makes us feel better to clean them, so we do. I've lost track of the number of rifles, pistols, and revolvers I've walked away from at the gun shows because of damage caused by overzealous and too frequent cleaning. Funny, we have seemingly gone 180 degrees on this one - most modern firearms stay in better shape if their owners don't clean them. Give me one with a fouled bore but no muzzle or leade damage any day over a sparkly clean one that has been cleaned with no bore guide or muzzle protection.