FWIW, baron d' Paul Henri Thiry Holbach's "The System of Nature" is available at Project Gutenberg.

Volume I: http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/8909
Volume II: http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/8910

Unsurprisingly, Adam Smith, among others, was a frequent visitor to d'Holbach's salon.

Cool stuff.

edit: Check out the first paragraph from Vol. I:

Genesis 32:30
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Reminds me of something Satan said:


You are treading on thin ice, I'm afraid.



KT

LOL! how so? Please, I'd really like to hear.

God didn't create lymphoma?

and tell me, what is your opinion on the entire history of man being punished for Original Sin?

if a child were born outside the womb, say in an artificial womb, would it be subject to Original Sin?

Use the scriptures to come to a complete understanding.
If the Bible says 'no man has seens God' or 'no one can see God and live', any verse that seems to be in conflict must have another meaning.



KT

You mean like the meaning of a day? Can't get around the original Hebrew Trek. A day is 24 hours in Genesis. It seems like if are using any of the English translations, you could spin the Bible to say anything you want it to, and seems like you do. Please use the original Hebrew and Greek from now on so we are on the same page. And if you are going to pull quotes out of the rest of Bible, please do so with the correct context.

thanks.

The teapot is just plain irrelevant, ie stupid. I used the kind way of stating why some of us can see why ID makes sense and some cannot, I guess I should have stuck to the facts, some of us are just plain stupid and cannot see why ID makes sense.

The best argument against the existence of ID, and very succinctly put.

Maybe in another thread.

I will just make one last comment. You can't get a perfect product out of a broken mold.


KT

I'm afraid you are unwilling to face reality head on.:eek:
Using your logic we MUST each learn the native tongue of any work or person or we cannot understand it/them.

**NEWSFLASH**
Translation of language is now rendered obsolete/ineffective/unreliable according to Shaun.

I'm not even going ask if you are fluent in Hebrew or Greek ( or Aramaic for that matter ).:rolleyes:


KT

Nathans Dad has made several good points, I do not agree with all of his views, but I respect him and his right to those views, thats the American way. Unfortunately there are a lot of fake Americans living in this country. They and their intolerance and un american lack of respect are the best argument for shutting down all immigration for the foreseeable future, at least until they can be properly assimilated into our country and the American way.

Oh, this is the most intellectual dishonesty I have ever seen. You are saying your English translation is more relevant than the original Hebrew? I was wrong about you Trek. When the Hebrew word for a day, 24 hours, is used in the text, that's what the word means. NOT what you want it to mean, no matter how badly you want it to.

You've exposed yourself as not understanding the Bible as it was originally written, but only as you want to understand it and make it fit into your world you have created. I find it incredibly disingenuous that you ascribe whole new English meanings to original Hebrew words. Can't imagine God would be very happy about that.

Done here.

Oh? What did you used to think? ( as the door closes ) :D



KT

Remember when I gave you advice on the wheels you were selling?

Not exactly.

I did get more than I was asking and sold them quickly and locally when I needed the money.;)


What does this have to do with anything ( spoken through mailslot ) :D


KT

Welcome to Trek's world. :( Most of us ignore him. That works best.

It’s amazing the contradictions snowedman makes in his own post.

First, he claims “the total lack of understanding of science shown by almost all” and then, and the end of his post, he mentions “And finally, yes, some of us are gifted. We have the ability to know things that some do not. We know that there must have been a creator. Those of us that cannot see this are simply lacking in the intelligence required to know such things.”

Some people just have the ability to know there is a god. How can this be anything but the feeling I keep mentioning? Some people have the feeling that god exists.

Snowedman claims that intelligence is required to know that god exists, yet he has nothing more than a feeling. He claims his feeling that god exists requires intelligence (e.g. logic, rational thought, science) , which it most certainly does not. It’s just an emotion. Calling what he knows by emotion intelligence shows his total lack of understanding of science.

Snowedman, it is you that has a total lack of understanding of science, if you think that it is science that tells you your god exists.

The only evidence that there is a creator (god) is this feeling people have. You have it, I do not.

You keep wanting to say “god did it” in regards to creation. Like we’ve said before, the number of things to which believers can say “god did it” is shrinking rapidly.

Sure, we don’t know everything, and we certainly don’t know that god didn’t do something on some remote planet in some remote galaxy 5 billion years ago. But remember, the mainstream Christian god is supposed to meddle in everyday affairs. This is a god that is supposed to answer prayers, has plans for people, flooded the earth, punished Job, etc. Even today, people say “god is testing me.” If a kid dies of cancer, they say god wanted him home, if the kid survives, they say god had plans for him on earth.

All of these things that this mainstream Christian god is supposed to do would be considered evidence in our 3 dimensional world. So how come there is still precisely zero things for which “god did it” is the explanation? God is supposed to have done, and do, lots of things in our 3 dimensional world.

Now what is this evidence that supports a creator you speak of? This question was asked in the Dover trial on ID. If there was a tiny shred of evidence that supported a creator, then ID would have been allowed to be taught in schools. The world’s foremost experts on ID could not come up with a shred of evidence for a creator in this trial, what make you think you have some? Delusions of grandeur? Or is your feeling that “there is a god, there must have been a creator” so overwhelming that it is overriding all of your logic and common sense? Your feeling about this is so strong that you feel you do indeed have evidence, despite the complete and utter failure of ID experts to present even a shred of evidence at the trial?

I find it interesting that the professed evidence is supposedly all around us, we have only to look. Yet when "we" look, we see perfectly natural explanations for everything. The post that you quote is a classic example of the circular and delusional arguments put forth in support of “god”.
It is interesting that “god” chose to reveal himself repeatedly in magical and powerful ways in the past to the likes of Moses, Jesus, Mohamed, etc (before the modern camera). I have one simple question.
Why isn’t the “burning bush” still burning? That is all it would take.

A blatant mis-statement of the obvious reality around us.

Genetic design/manipulation is obvious evidence of the viability of the concept of an intelligent designer.
M theory predicts a creator (just a matter of which universe you happen to dwell in)
Physicists predictions of being able to create universes in particle accelerators says that many scientists do believe in the notion of artificial, intelligent creation.
And living AI will absolutely verify the notion and one possible course for achieving Intelligent design.

You are all just holding a very, very narrow view of what "Intelligent design" or "Creationalism" is. Sure, the biblical variation of it is pretty incredulous, but other more reasonable definitions can certainly be supported, as above.

Creating a universe in a particle accelerator is a form of creationalism, period. It is in fact, the ultimate creation according to our extremely limited understanding of things.

We are in scientific kindergarten right now as a species. For those that act as if they have a Doctorate in the theory of "what is", i feel a good smack to the back of the head might knock some of that presumption out of there. The only thing we really know is that we don't know much of anything.

THAT is the truth.