New Pilot Buying Plane; Your input?
 

I know we have alot of pilots on this board and I am in the process of getting my pilots license and also buying a plane.

I'm planning on buying a plane through one of my companies with a partner who is also getting his license. My partner is a 911 guy too and he's done some homework on the type of plane we should buy and come up with this...

www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_182
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1209145453.jpg

So if any of you Pilots can throw in your two cents about this plane or anything to do with the whole plane ownership experience, that would be appreciated. I'm not new to the industry by any means, but new to ownership and flying.

Thanks in advance,
SmileWavy

Kind of depends on what you intend to use it for....strictly business/travel...Cessna = good.

Attending fly-ins with enthusiasts.... A Cessna tricycle-gear might end up being a bit plain vanilla after a while.

Rob, 182's are a great, stable platform, a nice "family truckster"...I have 2 questions about this plane: Why are you wanting to import it from the UK? What happened to the front wheel fairing? (that's a a bit "suspect" to me).SmileWavy

I think the plane is more recreational than anything, although it will be 100% business write off ;) This will likely just be a starter plane, but if I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna do it.

Not buying "this" plane, fyi.
Just looking at which plane to buy first and then will start the program of finding one.
My partner is the tech guy that will do all the due dilligence on our purchase; my only challenge will be keeping him on budget; ha, ha.

Thanks guys!

C182s are tanks. Very good, solid airplanes.

If you get "bored" with a plain vanilla C172 I'd look and see if you can find an RG. They're around.

In your neck of the woods, and if having extra room and seating for 6 is a consideration, look for a Cherokee 6 or a Lance. Both are fantastic airplanes and not terribly expensive to operate.

i dont know much about planes, but admire those that fly and would like to do that myself someday....anyway an acquaintance of mine is an experienced pilot and has a 2 engine plane and i remember him telling me that he wouldnt fly in a single engine plane...is this a commonly held thought?

Get some hours under your belt before you go retractable.

C-182 are hard to beat The 182 Turbo RG (Retract) is a very good plane for higher elevation operations this is the plane we use most for business in Montana. Cessna 206 is a fantastic plane for trips with the kids or fishing trips with the boys. We have always leased with the exception once. I find that we would have to spend 100 +Hours a year to justify the purchase. The plane's cost is not the real concern it's the recurrent hanger, maintenance & inspection costs. Make sure you are going to fly it enough. I have several friends who bought planes flew a lot at first and gradually stopped flying. They still have the same recurrent costs. It's a love I have had since I was a teenage boy.

$150-$450K is a lot collecting dust in a hanger. If you are going to have a partner and fly the plane a lot. I would buy the newest plane you can afford. Cessna is making both 182 & 206 planes right now except the RG 182. Just flew a new 206 Couple months ago they are very nice.

You guys are a great help thanks!

I would buy the newest plane you can afford.

Kinda like a 911, eh?

Im not in a position to buy a plane but I had a job in college that let me fly (co pilot but I flew a lot) a Cessna around for a summer. The experience was fun at first but after a while it became boring, kind of like driving your car in the world largest parking lot. A few years latter my dad also started down the road to getting a pilots license but also gave it up. If its a dream go for it but I would consider taking lessons, get some hours under your belt and then decide if its for you.

Picking a good partner in an airplane ownership is more important than the plane itself. A good partner, with good communication, following the rules and the agreements, making sure all the payments get into the bank account, etc. is critical to success. Make sure your partner is financially stable(like yourself) and set aside money for every hour you fly to eventually replace the consumables like the engine, prop, avionics, and annual costs like the annual itself and unplanned maintenance. Have a great partnership! Glenn

Can't you pick up a used F-16 or something?? :p

Rob, unless you are talking about spending well over 100k, you will obviously be buying used. I wouldn't concern yourself about model year as much as condition/time on current engine etc. A new 172 is not a whole lot different than a 30 yr old one when it comes to technology. Airplanes rarely make sense financially. If you want one, buy one, but don't be suprised if over the years you pump more money into it than you will ever get back out of it. I am fine with it, but don't let anyone fool you into thinking that you will not lose some money in the end. PM me and/or give me a buzz if you care to quiz me about mechanical issues as I am an IA/AP on the side.

Cirrus...the spam in a cans could not be more boring:)

There will come a time in your pilot time that fun is important.

Have you ever thought about building one? Would this be an option for you?

Rob,

Like Tim said, what are you going to use it for? How many people? How far are the flights going to be and so on? I did much the same thing back in the 70's and very happy that I did. Bought a C-150 with a partner to learn in, and after we both got our licenses traded it up for a C-177 Cardinal.

The C-182 is like someone else mentioned, the pick-up truck of the light plane world. It and the Piper Cherokee 6 are known for getting it off of the ground if you can get it in the cabin.

If its just going to be you and the wife then its fine, or the wife and one or two kids on a short jaunt thats fine. The C-182 hauls a good load but you really cannot fill every seat and go on a long trip unless everyone packs a 15 pound bag and that aint gonna happen with most wives. If its going to be you and the wife on longer jaunts, or your taking a camera guy looking for properties thats excellent. Also with the C-182 you could haul 3 people while looking for properties, but do not expect to fly 5 hours like this.

That said, for a starter airplane with a family, its a very good choice, just wanted you to understand the limitations. In your situation I would not get a C-172 as its really a 2 place airplane with a couple of back seats for your bags, pup or hunting/fishing gear. The C-182 will burn a couple of more gallons an hour than a C-172 but it will haul/hold a lot more. Its a pick up truck and you are paying for the utility. Up where you live thats a good thing.

Find an instructor and spend some time with them. What they teach you may very well save your life, so this is not a casual thing. One problem we have right now is that the industry is very short of pilots, so a lot of guys are getting hired out of flight instruction schools. Try to find an older guy who is not going to bail on you in the middle of your training because "Air Canada" just called and I am leaving tomorrow. Its a big problem now and hopefully you can find someone who will stick with you throught-out your entire training. If you need help, I know someone with TC and might be able to find some instructors for you.

One more thing. Start looking for a hangar... NOW. Hopefully you do not want to keep the plane sitting outside and can find what is called a "T-hangar" in your area for a reasonable price. I pay $170 a month for mine and its worth it for me as my airplane simply cannot sit outside. Being an 1940's vintage and covered with dope and fabric, it would fall apart in the AZ sun in a year. A Cessna is not in the same situation but hangaring a bird really takes care of them as opposed to tying it down outside. Second choice is a shade covered tie-down. I say start looking now as some places have a waiting list. My airport was 18 months. The one that is 15 miles SE of my location is a 6 YEAR waiting list, so find a place you like and put your name in the hat now if your location is that way.

You have my direct email. Get ahold of me if you want to or will help as possible here. I did what you are doing now and it turned into my vocation almost 40 years ago. Never looked back and I love what I am doing. Wish I was closer and had Canadian licenses, would be glad to fly with you guys and pass along some info.

Joe

In Canada? Look for a Cessna 180 tail dragger with STOL mods...(edit) My deceased "best buddy's" Dad had one back in the 70's...mods by Robertson aircraft in Washington State...I phreaked during some of the landings and takeoffs that plane made...

I tend to live my life by one creedo.. "If it flys floats , or uhm flaps" RENT IT!!!
On the other hand, the next plane I own will be a supercub.. with 180+ horses under the shroud and have tundra tires....

Guys,

A taildragger is a wonderful airplane but for two beginning pilots would be a handful.

As well a SuperCub is not going to do what he wants it to do. Slow, expensive and not enough seats.

A C-180/185 on the other hand.... very nice airplane and would do what they want it to do, but as well takes a bit of special training to get used to, especially in crosswind situatoins!

Joe

These guys have all given good advice. I'd stick with a 182 or a Cherokee 6 or something like that. Cirrus and Diamonds are the new "doctor killers"....like an old V-tail Bonanza.

Have it PPI'd, like you would with your 911. On the older planes, cracks in the structure and aluminum corrosion will be a death by a thousand cuts. (or death by structural failure)

After flying big jets, I went and rented a 172 a few weeks ago. ...I can't believe I ever flew those things. Coming in at 70 kts is damn scary!!!

Joe, what blew me away was when my buddy's dad said that the STOL mods actually made is 180 faster and more fuel efficient than the stock 180. That never made sense to me...care to explain? I didn't doubt the guy, I just couldn't figure out the how of it...

Yep, a Cirrus went into Toledo Bend Reservoir just south of here 2 nights ago (On the TX/LA border). 3 dead.

Rob,

Give Steve a call at Spring Aviation in Kamloops, he will help you pick the right machine for your needs, and just down the road!!! Tell him an old Kamloops controller sent you!! He may not remember me as I was only there for a couple of years in the early 90's.....

Cheers

Thanks again, I'm really enjoying this info.

Joe: you're the best buddy... I'll stay in touch with you as we progress.
Jeff: will do buddy, I think my partner knows him too.

We're just putting together our budgets and we're doing all the things that were mentioned above.

The plane will be used for visiting family and friends mostly, but also some scoping and camera work for real estate. We're definately in for 4+ seats minimum. Our local airstrip has lots of space so we're lucky we'll be able to get a hanger easily, but we'll check it out next week.

We're just getting our budget together; it's about $200K; $100K each and that includes about $150K for the plane. I'm gonna have to buy my wife off too and that's gonna be expensive!

As for my partner; well he's the best guy in the world, so no troubles there!

Rob,

A couple of other things. Get a good A&P (aircraft mechanic) and start a relationship with him. If you want to do minimal maintenance, that is legal in America, not sure in the GWN. Stuff like spark plugs, air filters, light bulbs and so on are usually not an issue once you know how to do it correctly.

In the states you can do larger things on the plane if your mechanic feels comfortable with you and your work, and may work with you the first few times you do something "just in case" he/she wants to make sure that they are comfortable with the way you do things.

Second is start a budget right now and stick to it. If you want to do things correctly, for every hour you fly the plane, put something like $20 away for engine reserves, $10 for airframe and so on as you feel will be needed when the time comes. Put these funds in a special account that earns interest so that they are working while they sit. That way when its time for an engine overhaul or new cylinders its not a surprise or big shock and you have funds ready to take care of the costs.

As stated above, get a good PPI on the bird and a oil sample. Then take an oil sample every oil change for the first few changes to get a baseline on what is normal for YOUR airplane. Then when a value changes, you will notice it easier and do something before a part inside fails.

Get a flight in a Cessna and Piper. See which one you like. Personally I like the Cessna high wing airplanes as the Piper singles fly like a truck. Thats me and you two need to see which one you guys like. Same thing with headsets. There are several different types and try several to see what you guys like. I have several, a Bose, Telex and David Clark, all noise canceling. All are good and all have plus'ses and minuses, so borrow one of each if possible and give them a try.

Joe

PS regarding the wife. Its easy to buy her off. Have her get a pilots license so that she can fly down to Seattle or where-ever and go shopping on her own. At a minimum she needs to have what is called a "pinch hitters" course where she can talk on the radio and land the plane should something happen to you. Gives both of you more of a "warm and fuzzy" feeling.

Right on Joe!
The buying is happening as we speak; ha, ha.
My wife took our youngest daughter and 2 of her friends down South to Penticton; they're shopping in Vernon, Kelowna and then while there they are spending two nights at a beachside hotel. (my bad gr?)
Ah, the good life!

My other two nested children are having a mini-party and still going... 1:30 AM; while the cats away;

Rob,

Please do not buy anything too fast. Look around and try several airplanes. Pls send Tim and myself the specs when you get something you like and have some non-biased A&P mechanics look it over "just in case"...

Also one of the biggest concerns is the aircraft, engine and prop logbooks. A good mechanic can spend hours looking through them, just waiting for the one entry in fine print that says "replaced right wing strut, leading edge and landing gear" or the like that shows a previous accident or the like. If you see an entry that says "replaced part # e33445 with new serviceable part" and thats it, it may be time to worry when you find out that part #e33445 was a complete wing assembly. What happened to require this and so on. Its things like this that you need to be on the look for and cannot be rushed. It can take years of working with airplanes to get good at this, so find someone experienced that you trust.

Also remember that while one plane may be very nice and in good condition, avionics (radios, GPS, intercoms etc) can easily cost 1/3 of the cost of an airplane these days. Either buy one like you want or find one with older radios and spend the bux to add something like a Garmin 430 GPS/radio unit that can turn a descent airplane into a cherry one.

Lastly get a title search and title insurance on the airplane. Last thing you want is to get an airplane and find out that there is a mechanics lein on the airplane from the previous owner where they refused to pay the engine shop who now hold a lein for $20,000 when they overhauled the engine.

A good place to start on this is AOPA Canada. Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association can do the title search for you and help with other aspects of buying an airplane for first time owners.

Yes its a lot to chew on at once but use those of us who have done this before and who can save you a lot of headache's.

Joe

+ 1 on that one Joe...Remember in the good ol'days...? all pilots were trained on tail happy craft...And it's the best pilots training...Learn to fly tail happy and you can fly anything thereafter...

Congrats Rob! As soon as money and time allows, I also plan to go down the path towards becoming a pilot. I spent my entire childhood flying around KS in my grandfather's V35 Bonanza, I can't think of any activity on earth that is more fun. Hell, that's the reason I'm an aerospace engineer, that's the reason I work at a Wichita aircraft company. Even better, it's something that you can share with your kids.

As expected, Joe and Tim have given you some excellent advice. I would only add to learn all that you can, and continue learning, not only about aircraft but about being a pilot. Fly as often as possible, and get all the training and ratings that you can. Get your IFR rating, there a MANY GA pilots who don't come home because their VFR flight became IFR and they didn't know how to deal with it. Plus, when learning and training = flying more, you really can't go wrong. Enjoy it! Owning an aircraft is a lifelong dream of mine, but for now membership to our company flying club will have to suffice. At least they have 5 A36 Bonanzas.:)

It is the pilot not the airplane.

After reading Rob's posts for the past few years, he comes across as a very high energy guy that will soon tire of the performance a 182 class of plane represents. He also comes across as a guy who understands training and proficiency, so a Cirrus class of plane won't be a, "Real Estate Developer" killer:)

Here are my requirements for a private plane (I have over 4k hours in everything from all classes of Navy aircraft to Cubs):

- Stick. I hate yokes.
- Low wing
- Fast cruise, minimum of 150Kts
- Capable of gentleman's aerobatics (loop/rolls, etc)

I plan on building a Vans RV-8 taildragger. :cool:

Paul,

Do not disagree with any of the above but a couple of comments.

You are a military trained pilot, while Rob is not. You are VERY experienced and Rob is not.

Let Rob get his feet wet in something nice and stable, with a bit of performance then decide which direction he wants to go. A RV is a very nice airplane but its fast and small inside. Not IMHO what you want to use when doing orbits over a property you are trying to sell to "Ma and Pa" in the GWN.

Joe

I agree, Joe...the RV is not for Rob!

My advice for Rob is exactly yours, only I wouldn't buy until my feet were absolutely soaked:cool: The RV-8 is for the boy and I...he wants to start pilot training as soon as possible at the local training school.

Remember if you build one yourself then you do all your own inspections and any work on it which can save you huge over time..

Coincidence? Or do ex military pilots think alike? My friend Jimbo...USAF, final ride there was F-111, then "drove bus" for American until retiring on his 60th birthday. Not a taildragger, but nearing completion on an RV7-A
http://www.vansaircraft.com/public/rv-7int.htm

Jimbo, despite his USAF handicap, is a wise and thoughtful man.;)

Every F-111 pilot I've known is a solid soul...I bet Jimbo lights it up.

Most military pilots I know want their right hand on the stick, left hand on the gas. All porn related analogies are appropriate and apt.:cool:

Get something that can hold 6 people. Way more flexible for your travels.

Thanks again everyone, Joe, Tim and Seahawk especially.
Matt, we'll see ya in the sky one day buddy.....
Craig, I won't be building my own plane; ha, ha. Sorry not me.
My family jokes with me and says that I should get a one seater as no one will ever fly with me. (kinda got a bad rep for speeding ;) )

This was exactly what I wanted when posting this thread, so I'm very happy with the great info here, and once again thanks JOE! Great stuff you posted and I promise to follow your suggestions to the "T", OK>

I directed my partner here too and he's had a read through the thread; so we're happy that the Cessna 182 seems to be a good fit for us to get started on.

I realize I might get bored of it, but I'm willing to take it slow. I drove a 2.7L 1974 911 for many years and was very happy with it. I plan on getting the best training possible and so does my partner. When I first met him he came into my office and saw a picture of a 911 poster. He commented how he liked the 911. I told him that I was gonna own one soon and he said, "Me too." We both do now, ha, ha. Over the years we've been partners on a few ventures and we both love setting goals and going after them; only this is NOT a goal for me, it is simply a plan that I AM executing; my 'goal' setting days are over! ;)

Great info guys and cheers to ya all!
See ya in the sky!

HOOT! You should see Jimbos 2nd wife! I drool a bit...

Something else to think about:

You fly a taildragger and you drive everything elseSmileWavy