the PPOT guide to the political parties

[nostatic]

While driving to the beach today, I was trying to figure out how my world view jibes with others here, and also was considering Joe's complaint that the conservatives are in the minority and singled out for censure. I think the latter is numerically incorrect (and that "conservatives" far outnumber "liberals" here).

That being said, I set about distilling the vast number of posts I've read into what seems to be the "liberal" and "conservative" platforms as espoused here. Feel free to correct.

Conservatives:

Going to Iraq was definitely (probably) justified, but it is a moot point and we'll stay there until it is "stable" no matter the time or cost involved.

There is too much government regulation over personal behavior.

The Patriot Act is necessary.

Abortion is wrong.

Corporate and personal taxes should be lowered.

The Department of Education should be dismantled and the IRS should be reformed or abolished in favor of a flat tax or equivalent.

Entitlements should be cut or abolished. The poor are mostly poor because they choose to be so, and it is not societies responsibility to take care of them indefinitely.

Illegal immigrants cost way more than they provide, and are a major reason that the country is in shambles.

If we got rid of illegal aliens, existing citizens would immediate pick up the slack and fill all of those jobs for the same wages.

The 2nd amendment should have no abridgment.

Capitalism should rule the day, and corporations can be trusted to self-police with regards to their financial and labor issues.

-----

Liberals:

Going to Iraq was wrong and we need to get out soon.

Believe that society has a responsibility to protect everyone.

Are for increasing taxes and services.

Want laws governing certain personal behaviors.

Abortion is a woman's choice.

Entitlements are needed as a safety net and also to try and equalize the playing field.

The 2nd amendment needs limits.

Corporations cannot be trusted to "do the right thing" and need significant regulation, along with the markets.

---

So to sum it up:

conservatives are mean soulless jerks
liberals are wimpy well-meaning idiots

that sound about right?

[stomachmonkey]

Thats' why I'm a moderate.

[Tim Hancock]

Not 100%, but pretty close coming from a long time republican.

[DaveE]

Now I'm not sure what I am........................

[nostatic]

By popular demand:

Libertarian

Abolish everything.

Free market.

Encourage civil war enactments.

[Dueller]

Much simpler according to one of my neo-con friends:

Republicans sign the front of checks.

Democrats sign the back.

[tc-sacto]

Conservatives:

Going to Iraq was definitely (probably) justified, but it is a moot point and we'll stay there until it is "stable"and let the military determine a reasonable time talbe for pull back.

There is too much government regulation over personal behavior.

The Patriot Act is necessary.

Abortion is wrong.

Corporate taxes should be lowered and personal taxes should be kept at current rates. Or better yet, Stop wasting the tax money and there will be plenty for social issues. (The country should easily be able to provide for those in need by only taking 25% max in taxes)

The Department of Education should be dismantled and power returned to the states for education. The IRS should be reformed or abolished in favor of a flat tax or equivalent.

Entitlements should be cut or abolished. The working poor should be retrained. The disabled should be cared for. Society does a better job than the government in taking care of them.

Illegal immigrants cost way more than they provide, and are a major reason that the country is in shambles.

If we got rid of illegal aliens, existing citizens would immediate pick up the slack. Depressed wages for the lower class wouild improve. Legitimate business could better compete with the ones using illegal labor.

The 2nd amendment should have no abridgment.

Capitalism should rule the day, and corporations should be trusted to self-regulate with minimal goverment oversite to insure compliance with existing fair practises in regards to financial and labor issues.

-----

Liberals:

Going to Iraq was wrong and we need to get out soon.

Believe that federal Governement has a responsibility to protect everyone.

Are for increasing taxes and inceased entitlements.

Want laws governing certain personal freedoms. Especially gun control.

Abortion is a woman's choice.

Entitlements are needed to equalize the playing field. You deserve it even if you didn't earn it.

The 2nd amendment needs limits.

Corporations cannot be trusted to "do the right thing" and need significant regulation, along with the markets.



An alternate veiw point.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by nostatic

Conservatives:

There is too much government regulation over personal behavior.

How does this jive with the gay marriage issue? seems like Republicans want to legislate their vision of social engineering.

BTW, I know it's hard enough to place labels and then define them, but I would use Republican/Democrat more than Con/Lib.

I'm fiscally conservative, socially liberal/libertarian (I don't care what you do or how you live you life so long as you aren't hurting anyone or sucking off society), education is the silver bullet, I like guns but like waiting periods, the death penalty (for murder and rape), would rather see a culture of adoption than one of abortion, government should stay out of our personal lives, but a safety net is important. I am completely against the welfare system, mainly because it propagates cycles (poverty, need, expectation, abuse) rather than breaks them. The end game is that when you don't work for something, when it's just given to you, you'll never appreciate it, you'll never understand achievement, you'll never learn anything and be able to take those skills to modify them to tackle new challenges. Entitlement programs are poorly designed to make you FEEL like you are one thing, but don't give you the tools to actually BE that thing. BTW, this also describes the occupation of Iraq.


have also posted my solution for illegal immigration:
The solution to illegal alien immigration is simple:

1. For every illegal alien caught, no matter the circumstances, we bill the Mexican government for all costs associated with deporting each alien. I would privatize this and make cost + fee contracts the standard.

2. If/when Mexico doesn't pay, the $ are just deducted from foreign aid packages or added to a tariff outside of NAFTA

3. Every business caught employing illegal aliens is fined 2X the industry/regional standard annual salary for every year that alien was employed, no pro-rate, so if employed for 13 months, the company is still fined for 2 years of salary.

4. Companies found employeeing illegal aliens cannot bid on or receive government contracts for 5 years after discovery

5. 2-tier tax credit for business:
1. If you are in an industry that typically hires foreign labor, you get an XX% tax credit for every American citizen you employ that would normally be filled by an immigrant
2. You get a X% credit for every legal immigrant you hire

6. All illegal aliens must go back to Mexico and apply for legal, temporary status. This would work in concert with businesses here in the states who would determine who is here illegally, pay for their bus trip back to Mexico, get the temporary status paperwork completed, get them back to work. See above on tax credit.

7. All illegal aliens back in the States must attend business/government sponsored U.S. History and English classes for 1 year.





I vote Democrat as the party of lesser of 2 evils with a slight edge in vision.

[Zeke]

Given the two major positions identified, will we ever get anything right again? Not from anyone position aligned with what's outlined above.

This is all starting to make the likes of Ross Perot viable.

[the]

Seems pretty good. A couple things, tho.

Abortion - Most Republicans I know don't really care about it that much. Or at least have a view the is pretty moderate. I.e., everyone would agree in an ideal world, no one would want or need an abortion. And most would agree that an elective abortion for no real reason, the minute before birth, should not be permitted. Most Repubs that I know are ok with the current R v. W trimester setup.

Most that I know also now think Iraq was a mistake. Or at least that major mistakes have been made. But that's pretty easy in hindsight.

You don't directly address spending and size of govt. That was really the cornerstone of Repub. Reduce the size of govt and reduce govt spending. Unfortunately, that has been completely and totally abandoned by the Repub party.

I doubt you can find any republican in the house or senate who thinks that entitlements should be abolished entirely.

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by nostatic

So to sum it up:

conservatives are mean soulless jerks
liberals are wimpy well-meaning idiots

that sound about right?

Nope, doesn't sound right. Slanted, but not right.

I'm a textbook conservative and don't see a need to dismantle the board of education as long as we get rid of the teacher's unions, get rid of tenure, get rid of the ex-teacher idiots who are now idiot superintendents, allow personal freedom of religion in school, and demand teacher performance for compensation. OK, I guess that's the same thing as getting rid of the board of education.

You missed the whole point about illegal immigration also. it is ILLEGAL and
it is OUT OF CONTROL! Our society, our country, our culture is being taken over and wiped out, in favor of a culture from a third world country. if we wanted to live in a poor corrupt third world country we would move there. We don't. We want to live in our country with our culture, our heritage, our history. OURS! Not theirs.

As far as saying it is not society's responsibility to take care of the the poor indefinitely, that is completely false. It is NOT the GOVERNMENT'S job to take care of the poor. It is society's burden, and should be handled through private charity and not with government handouts.

When you say that conservatives are mean soulless jerks, you missed the whole point, again. Conservatives care more than the liberals but they are logical about their caring. We feel it is cruel to condemn the poor to generation after generation of welfare dependence. Conservatives also donate significantly more to charity that liberals do. I donated money to charity today, did you?
I'd venture to guess that conservatives carry a larger percentage of the tax burden that provides for welfare also.

So, you suggest conservatives don't care but we are actually doing more to support the needy than you liberals are. Instead of talking, we are doing. We are taking care of the needy with our money, and you are also trying to take care of the needy with our money.
Ouch, that's gotta sting.
To all the libs out there, stop trying so hard to spend my money and start spending yours if you feel so strong about a cause. Don't worry, when you run out of money there will always be a conservative there to support you and provide jobs, if you're inclined to work.

[Hugh R]

From your conservative perspective There is too much government regulation over personal behavior.

I think the gubmit sticks their nose too much in my business, drugs, abortion.

Entitlements should be cut or abolished. The poor are mostly poor because they choose to be so, and it is not societies responsibility to take care of them indefinitely. Not abolished, but for example, I've read about people who have been on Section 8 housing vouchers for 50 years! Exactly when in your life do you actually go out and try and better yourself so that you can support yourself. I mean 50 years, come on! And yes, I actually read that in an article about Federal housing in Chicago. Let's see... what have I done in 50 years, well, I was born, went to school, went in the military, put myself through college while working, got an MBA at night while working full time, raised a family, took continuing education classes, etc.

From your liberal post:

Want laws governing certain personal behaviors. Like what? Personally, I think what you do to yourself/in your bedroom is your own damn business, and the gubmit should keep their noses out. You want to ride a motorcycle without a helmet fine, kill yourself, but you should be required to wear goggles cause crap getting in your eyes impairs your ability to ride safely and affects my safety. The liberals in congress [read Democrats] seem to want to reward personal bad behavior, like bailing out homeowners who "qualified" for "Stated Income" home loans and are now bailing on said loans. Instead of blaming the homeowners, they use words like "victimized" by the mortgage companies.


Entitlements are needed to equalize the playing field. You deserve it even if you didn't earn it. A little extreme, but rather the liberals rationalize that people can't help themselves and need supports.

conservatives are mean soulless jerks
liberals are wimpy well-meaning idiots

I think liberals measure their compassion by how many people they get ON welfare; conservatives measure their compassion by how many people they get OFF welfare.

[nostatic]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

allow personal freedom of religion in school

sorry, you lost me there. Your religion has no place in the school that my taxes pay for. Neither does my religion.

[rammstein]

Rammsteinian-

Flat Tax- Abolish 90% of the IRS- use savings for childrens' hospitals

Drugs and prostitution- Legalize, regulate, tax. Break any laws while doing your little drugs or whores, and NOW you go away for real. Use savings from no 'war on drugs' and the taxation on drugs for childrens' hospitals.

High speed highways- Special federal licensing required, super hard to pass, but free to try to pass. One test per year. Mandatory retesting yearly. One DUI = banned for life from the high speed throughfares.

Iraq- We should have gone in as soon as they violated the cease fire from Gulf-War 1. But we went in under the stupid-ass WMD argument. That was dumb. But we are there now, and being a responsible person/nation means fixing what you start. We stay and finish, and guess what idealists.... its gonna be a long frickin time, but our soldiers are doing a DAMN good job and we gotta keep pushing to make it right there. It is politically unpopular, but being honest---- there is no timetable, and anyone that promises a timetable is either a liar or a self-serving politcian.

And I guess that's what I will promise in my first term. If I actually accomplished this, it would be epic, so I won't promise more.

[Jim727]

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

How does this jive with the gay marriage issue? seems like Republicans want to legislate their vision of social engineering.

BTW, I know it's hard enough to place labels and then define them, but I would use Republican/Democrat more than Con/Lib.

I'm fiscally conservative, socially liberal/libertarian (I don't care what you do or how you live you life so long as you aren't hurting anyone or sucking off society), education is the silver bullet, I like guns but like waiting periods, the death penalty (for murder and rape), would rather see a culture of adoption than one of abortion, government should stay out of our personal lives, but a safety net is important. I am completely against the welfare system, mainly because it propagates cycles (poverty, need, expectation, abuse) rather than breaks them. The end game is that when you don't work for something, when it's just given to you, you'll never appreciate it, you'll never understand achievement, you'll never learn anything and be able to take those skills to modify them to tackle new challenges. Entitlement programs are poorly designed to make you FEEL like you are one thing, but don't give you the tools to actually BE that thing. BTW, this also describes the occupation of Iraq.


have also posted my solution for illegal immigration:
The solution to illegal alien immigration is simple:

1. For every illegal alien caught, no matter the circumstances, we bill the Mexican government for all costs associated with deporting each alien. I would privatize this and make cost + fee contracts the standard.

2. If/when Mexico doesn't pay, the $ are just deducted from foreign aid packages or added to a tariff outside of NAFTA

3. Every business caught employing illegal aliens is fined 2X the industry/regional standard annual salary for every year that alien was employed, no pro-rate, so if employed for 13 months, the company is still fined for 2 years of salary.

4. Companies found employeeing illegal aliens cannot bid on or receive government contracts for 5 years after discovery

5. 2-tier tax credit for business:
1. If you are in an industry that typically hires foreign labor, you get an XX% tax credit for every American citizen you employ that would normally be filled by an immigrant
2. You get a X% credit for every legal immigrant you hire

6. All illegal aliens must go back to Mexico and apply for legal, temporary status. This would work in concert with businesses here in the states who would determine who is here illegally, pay for their bus trip back to Mexico, get the temporary status paperwork completed, get them back to work. See above on tax credit.

7. All illegal aliens back in the States must attend business/government sponsored U.S. History and English classes for 1 year.


I vote Democrat as the party of lesser of 2 evils with a slight edge in vision.

I hereby nominate Shaun for President.
Jim

[on2wheels52]

"Republicans sign the front of checks.

Democrats sign the back."

Good one, should be a bumper sticker.
Jim

[Tobra]

Originally Posted by on2wheels52

"Republicans sign the front of checks.

Democrats sign the back."

Good one, should be a bumper sticker.
Jim

it is already

I consider myself a conservative Republican and don't agree with much you have there Todd.

Oh, and liberals want to get out of Iraq immediately, not soon.

Nobody who espouses the views Shaun put forth will ever get elected, too controversial, even if correct.

Sammy, I would say Todd has his tongue firmly in cheek, lighten up

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by Tobra

Nobody who espouses the views Shaun put forth will ever get elected, too controversial, even if correct.

Give me 20 years.

[David]

Originally Posted by Dueller

Much simpler according to one of my neo-con friends:

Republicans sign the front of checks.

Democrats sign the back.

Warren Buffett is a democrat. I'm pretty sure he signs the front of most checks

[dmcummins]

Originally Posted by 125shifter

Warren Buffett is a democrat. I'm pretty sure he signs the front of most checks

Isn't he giving most of his money to Bill Gates charity instead of letting the Government get ahold of it. Seams that he doesn't trust the government to spend his money.