Coincidence?

[frogger]

I would settle for the winning Powerball ticket.

[IROC]

Originally Posted by Nathans_Dad

Ok, I accept that. Can you tell me of a scenario that you would accept as proof then? Would it take an actual appearance of God to you personally or would you accept something less?

I have actually put a lot of thought into this. This is a difficult question to answer as I, personally, don't have any preconceived notions of what your god or anyone else's is capable of beyond what you tell me. You define the nature and makeup of your god - not me. So for instance, I can only look at what a Christian claims their god is capable of (or actually does) and then look around me for the evidence of those actions. Take prayer for instance. Many Christians believe that god answers their prayers. To me, actual evidence of answered prayers would be evidence of the Christian god's existence. We don't see that, however. Many Christians would claim that the survival of these pilots is evidence of the existence of their god. Unfortunately, there is no compelling evidence to support that.

Bottom line, I am certainly open to evidence. I am not close-minded. The rub is that you (as the believer) make the claims as to what your particular god can do, not me. You set the rules. All I can do is listen to your claims and weigh the evidence for them. I could say that proof for me would be for a mountain of gold bars to suddenly appear in my front yard, but you'll counter with "my god doesn't work that way". To me (and many others) the evidence in support of the Christian god's existence based on what Christians claim has not been compelling. Feel free to change that!

[Nathans_Dad]

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

Not a big reader of the stories of the early Israelites, are you Rick? the proper analogy, from a size of force perspective, would have Iraq winning Gulf I because God helped him to do so. Same with all the early Israelite victories over larger forces.

You asked for a lopsided victory. The forces at the start of Gulf War I were approximately equal (at least according to the Iraqi statements on their force size). The kill ratio was grossly lopsided in favor of the nation that has the Christian God as its predominant deity. Criteria met, welcome to the fold.

[Nathans_Dad]

IROC, I don't set what my God can do, that is set by God. By definition God COULD do whatever he/she wants to. Ruling the globe like a puppeteer isn't how it works though.

By the way, there have been studies into prayer for healing in the hospital, a small clip from an article is below:

"San Francisco cardiologist Randolph Byrd, for example, conducted an experiment in which he asked born-again Christians to pray for 192 people hospitalized for heart problems, comparing them with 201 not targeted for prayer. No one knew which group they were in. He reported in 1988 that those who were prayed for needed fewer drugs and less help breathing.

William S. Harris of St. Luke's Hospital in Kansas City, Mo., and colleagues published similar results in 1999 from a study involving nearly 1,000 heart patients, about half of whom were prayed for without their knowledge."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/23/AR2006032302177_2.html

Of course there are a lot of scientists who feel that these studies are biased and should not be done. Just FYI.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by Nathans_Dad

You asked for a lopsided victory. The forces at the start of Gulf War I were approximately equal (at least according to the Iraqi statements on their force size). The kill ratio was grossly lopsided in favor of the nation that has the Christian God as its predominant deity. Criteria met, welcome to the fold.

forces were equal? you have a mighty low opinion of our Military! wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Nathans_Dad]

The forces were equal in number but the victory was very lopsided on the side of the Christian nation.

Incidentally I have looked for the story of a few Isrealites buddies defeating hundreds of Ammonites and I can't seem to find it. I do see stories of Israel waging war against Ammon several times but no mention of numbers. Can you provide a link to support your statement?

[Shaun @ Tru6]

So I suppose 10 guys with baseball bats are equal in force to 10 guys with machine guns? Rick, your intellectual dishonesty is trying at best. C'mon man, you're the only one in the whole freakin country who thinks the Iraqi forces were the equal of U.S. and Coalition Forces in Gulf I. Know when to give up when trying to make a point.

Canaanites, Hittites, Sodomites, Perizzites, Jebusites, Amonites, Moabites, Egyptians and Amorites among others. Pick any one for the few against many analogy, though maybe you are correct. I seem to recall now that God liked the Amonites. Go figure.

[Nathans_Dad]

Any link to support your assertion that the Isrealites were a few buddies against hundreds of Ammonites?

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

When a few friends and I go up against 300 Amonites and we are victorious, that would be proof.

Just as long as we're talking about intellectual dishonesty...

From what I can tell the Bible describes the Ammonites as a tribe in the land of Ammon (which apparently is somewhere near the Dead Sea). I can't find any mention of their troop strength or weaponry that was available to them.

If it is a case of the Israelites with bows and arrows vs the Ammonites with rocks, then yes, I think it would be entirely possible. Not even that, in more recent history the Continental Army was able to defeat a much larger, more powerful and better equipped army through better tactics and use of the land. Is that not possible as well? Come to think of it, that might be a better example than Gulf War I.

Again, welcome to the fold.

[IROC]

Originally Posted by Nathans_Dad

IROC, I don't set what my God can do, that is set by God. By definition God COULD do whatever he/she wants to. Ruling the globe like a puppeteer isn't how it works though.

But you are asking me what evidence I would accept. How can I formulate a response if you won't tell me what you're god is capable of? If your god sets the rules, then how am I to discern what he makes happen and what he doesn't? By my own opinion? By your insistence? Look at this another way. Say some guy from some unfamiliar religion comes up to you and claims his god is real. The only way you can evaluate his claims is to find out in what way his god manifests himself and then look for evidence of that manifestation. If there is no evidence, you'd be forced to conclude either that his god doesn't really exist or he doesn't really manifest himself in the way he claims. That's exactly what we are left with in this situation. Either the Christian god doesn't really exist or he doesn't manifest himself in the way Christians claim.

By the way, there have been studies into prayer for healing in the hospital, a small clip from an article is below:

For the two or three studies that show some positive effect of prayer, there are twenty that show it does nothing. Not compelling. Sorry. You're counting "heads" again while dismissing the "tails".

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by Nathans_Dad

Any link to support your assertion that the Isrealites were a few buddies against hundreds of Ammonites?



Just as long as we're talking about intellectual dishonesty...

From what I can tell the Bible describes the Ammonites as a tribe in the land of Ammon (which apparently is somewhere near the Dead Sea). I can't find any mention of their troop strength or weaponry that was available to them.

If it is a case of the Israelites with bows and arrows vs the Ammonites with rocks, then yes, I think it would be entirely possible. Not even that, in more recent history the Continental Army was able to defeat a much larger, more powerful and better equipped army through better tactics and use of the land. Is that not possible as well? Come to think of it, that might be a better example than Gulf War I.

Again, welcome to the fold.

Yer gonnna wanna see post #87 Rick. And you're really not getting the gist of how the early Israelites conquered all other larger tribes in the OT, are you. makes me wonder what else in the Bible you don't understand, or are you having a Trekkor moment?

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by Nathans_Dad

Again, welcome to the fold.

What's really funny here is that you have no idea about my spiritual beliefs. You'd be shocked, I'm sure.

But back to Gulf I. On what basis do you think so little of our Military. let's get to the bottom of this, please fill in the quantities in two columns:

Description_________U.S. and Coalition Forces _________________Iraq
Troop Strength
Troop Reserve Strength
Artillery and Guns
Tanks
Fighters
Stealth Bombers
B1 Bombers
Aircraft Carriers
Battleships
Destroyers

Thanks man!

[Nathans_Dad]

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

Yer gonnna wanna see post #87 Rick. And you're really not getting the gist of how the early Israelites conquered all other larger tribes in the OT, are you. makes me wonder what else in the Bible you don't understand, or are you having a Trekkor moment?

I'm simply waiting for the support you have for your statement. You said if you and some buddies could go up against some Ammonites and win that would be proof for you. So you either a) pulled that out of your a$$ (all the while talking about intellectual dishonesty...) or b) have some sort of source that indicates that happened.

Yes, the Bible says the Isrealites conquered many other tribes. So what? One tribe conquering another is all it takes? You assume the Isrealites were vastly outnumbered against the Ammonites, I can't find that info anywhere. So I'm asking you to provide it.

If you are looking for a scenario where a much smaller army defeated a larger, more powerful one then I have provided the American Revolution as a modern example.

Still waiting....or were you being intellectually dishonest???

Of course, if you were just stating a scenario then we might be able to take up a collection to fly you and a couple buddies over to the middle east, rustle up 300 Ammonite descendants and let you go at it...

[Nathans_Dad]

Originally Posted by IROC

But you are asking me what evidence I would accept. How can I formulate a response if you won't tell me what you're god is capable of? If your god sets the rules, then how am I to discern what he makes happen and what he doesn't? By my own opinion? By your insistence? Look at this another way. Say some guy from some unfamiliar religion comes up to you and claims his god is real. The only way you can evaluate his claims is to find out in what way his god manifests himself and then look for evidence of that manifestation. If there is no evidence, you'd be forced to conclude either that his god doesn't really exist or he doesn't really manifest himself in the way he claims. That's exactly what we are left with in this situation. Either the Christian god doesn't really exist or he doesn't manifest himself in the way Christians claim.



For the two or three studies that show some positive effect of prayer, there are twenty that show it does nothing. Not compelling. Sorry. You're counting "heads" again while dismissing the "tails".

No, I'm not counting anything. If you noticed I also said that many researchers discount those studies. You asked something about proving that prayer works and I provided an FYI.

Second, I am not asking you to say what it would take for you to believe in the Judeo-Christian God as stated by the Pope or whoever. I am simply asking what it would take for you to believe in a supernatural higher power. Since God (or the being of your choice) would have created this universe then, he/she is CAPABLE of anything. Whether he/she chooses to use that power is a different thing altogether.

[Rodsrsr]

Originally Posted by kstarnes

I think it would be great if he/she/it would just reveal itself. But, if according to certain texts and their certain interpretations, when this happens it will already be too late for poor souls like me.

Rick, that was just one example of proof I would accept personally. I am sure there are others I could think up that would be satisfactory

Good night to you - I must turn off my internets.

Kurt. How would you explain this? My 5 year old German Shepard developed a tumor near the rectal area. (this is somewhat common among purebreeds) The vet confirmed that is was a tumor and that due the location there was an 80% chance of it being malignant. The bad news was the even if the tumor was benign, he was not able to remove it, due to its location. Eventually the tumor would grow, putting pressure on the rectum and cause blockage to the point that the dog would not be able to defecate. I decided to get a second opinion and took the dog to a very high end animal hospital that specalized in advanced surgery and cancer. They confirmed with the same prognosis, but advised getting a biopsy to identify what type of tumor it was. His reason for the biopsy, was that although difficult he "may" be able to remove the tumor if it turned out to be benign. I've grown very attached to this dog and felt really bad because he was only 5 years old and otherwise extremly healthy. Knowing there was nothing I could to to change the outcome I asked some fellow Christians to make a prayer for my dog. A week later I took him in for the biopsy. When I returned later that day to pick him up the vet sad he needed to talk to me. I already knew the worst, so I had no idea of what he wanted to tell me. He than said that he had great news that he could not explain. He told me that as he started the biopsy, the was no longer a tumor, nothing, it was completly gone and he could not explain it. He tried to come up with a few possibilities, but really had no idea of what occured. Im sure that you will say he just misdiagnosed the dog, along with the secong specalist, or you will say that I am making this up. For the record, this occured back in December and the dog is still 100% fine.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by kstarnes

They might surely have a stronger belief now. Assuming some deity did save them, then one must ask why the deity hasn't saved thousand of thousands of other folks who were probably praying quite vigorously as their planes went down. Why these guys?

I know, "God works in mysterious ways" or "God has a plan".

Not very convincing, IMO.

God, if there is one, doesn't really need to convince you while he is saving someone else.

All i know, is this is a pretty amusing story.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by Nathans_Dad

I'm simply waiting for the support you have for your statement. You said if you and some buddies could go up against some Ammonites and win that would be proof for you. So you either a) pulled that out of your a$$ (all the while talking about intellectual dishonesty...) or b) have some sort of source that indicates that happened.

Yes, the Bible says the Isrealites conquered many other tribes. So what? One tribe conquering another is all it takes? You assume the Isrealites were vastly outnumbered against the Ammonites, I can't find that info anywhere. So I'm asking you to provide it.

If you are looking for a scenario where a much smaller army defeated a larger, more powerful one then I have provided the American Revolution as a modern example.

Still waiting....or were you being intellectually dishonest???

Of course, if you were just stating a scenario then we might be able to take up a collection to fly you and a couple buddies over to the middle east, rustle up 300 Ammonite descendants and let you go at it...

Rick, I urge you to read post 87 again, slowly and carefully. Pay particular attention the last sentences. I think you need to slow down and pray a little on this one. I really do.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

forces (during ODS) were equal? you have a mighty low opinion of our Military! wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Actually, they were not equal in numerical terms, which is what Nathan's Dad seemed to be saying. Coalition forces were outnumbered almost 2:1. At the time the Iraqi's had the third largest army on Earth(the US army was 4th at the time).

There are lots and lots of examples of few taking on many. The Battle for Rourkes Drift is one. The Battle of Mogadishu is another(the force ratios in that one were about 1,000:1)

And of course there are even 1 vs 100s examples, like Audie Murphy, when he won his CMoH, or Sgt York, or hundreds of others. The citations for the US CMoH are all online, some of them are utterly beyond belief.

Were they miracles? Sure, why not? What's the difference if they were or they weren't. The net result is the same.

[Nathans_Dad]

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

Rick, I urge you to read post 87 again, slowly and carefully. Pay particular attention the last sentences. I think you need to slow down and pray a little on this one. I really do.

I take it that you have no proof or support for your statement since you are now resorting to your usual condescending smoke blowing...intellectual dishonesty indeed.

I'll end the conversation here before it degenerates further.

[dshepp806]

first time in OT forum,..(usually hang out with the "factual" in Tech Forum)..
...MANOMANOMAN,..time for some RUSH:

Freewill


There are those who think that life
Has nothing left to chance,
A host of holy horrors
To direct our aimless dance

A planet of playthings
We dance on the strings
Of powers we cannot perceive
"The stars aren't aligned -
Or the gods are malign"
Blame is better to give than receive.

You can choose a ready guide
In some celestial voice.
If you choose not to decide
You still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears
And kindness that can kill;
I will choose a path that's clear-
I will choose free will

There are those who think that
They were dealt a losing hand,
The cards were stacked against them-
They weren't born in Lotus-Land
All pre-ordained
A prisoner in chains
A victim of venomous fate
Kicked in the face
You can pray for a place
In heaven's unearthly estate

Each of us
A cell of awareness
Imperfect and incomplete
Genetic blends
With uncertain ends
On a fortune hunt
That's far too fleet...

RUSH, from Permanent Waves...

...Neil got it right with the "holy horrors" line.

.......geeez.

[dshepp806]

first time in OT forum,..(usually hang out with the "factual" in Tech Forum)..
...MANOMANOMAN,..time for some RUSH:

Freewill


There are those who think that life
Has nothing left to chance,
A host of holy horrors
To direct our aimless dance

A planet of playthings
We dance on the strings
Of powers we cannot perceive
"The stars aren't aligned -
Or the gods are malign"
Blame is better to give than receive.

You can choose a ready guide
In some celestial voice.
If you choose not to decide
You still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears
And kindness that can kill;
I will choose a path that's clear-
I will choose free will

There are those who think that
They were dealt a losing hand,
The cards were stacked against them-
They weren't born in Lotus-Land
All pre-ordained
A prisoner in chains
A victim of venomous fate
Kicked in the face
You can pray for a place
In heaven's unearthly estate

Each of us
A cell of awareness
Imperfect and incomplete
Genetic blends
With uncertain ends
On a fortune hunt
That's far too fleet...

RUSH, from Permanent Waves...

...Neil got it right with the "holy horrors" line.

.......geeez.