that is 100% true..in fact Thomas Jefferson actually RE WROTE an edited version of the bible called the Philosophy of Jesus as he felt that the true message had been clouded by much BS...

There were many Founding Fathers - and all involved very much a product of their time. Washington and Jefferson had writings on the subject - but it was a big group and 200+ years later it is not easy to tell what was in the hearts of each of these men.

I can think of a dozen individuals off the top of my head who prayed for a successful outcome to a surgery that had no chance of being successfull and got it.

I can tell you for a fact that if you have people praying for you, you do better in a bad medical situation. You can attribute that to whatever you like, positive karma, the spaghetti monster, Oprah but it does not change what I have seen. Don't particularly care if anyone believes this or not, seen it more times than I could count.
sure it is, ask anyone, and they will tell you just exactly what they intended when they were jotting this down.

Surgery that "had no chance of being successful" and they went through with it anyway? I suggest you alert the media, then, as no one else knows about this.

Here's a quote from the following article:

"As with so many things, the hype about prayer definitely outshines the reality. To date there has not been a single good study showing that prayer has any value for helping sick people."

From: http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/msciprayer.html

As I mentioned previously, there is no concrete evidence that prayer has any positive effect. Some studies have even shown a negative effect.

This major study refutes your "fact" soundly:

A quote from the article:

"In a clear setback for those who believe in the power of prayer, their prayers were not answered. Prayers offered by strangers did not reduce the medical complications of major heart surgery. Not only that, but patients who knew that others were praying for them fared worse than those who did not receive such spiritual support, or who did but were not aware of receiving it."

From: http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2006/04.06/05-prayer.html

Humans are horrible at probability. They count successes all the time while dismissing failures.

Dozens had a successful outcome when there was a low chance of success? So what? I can think of thousands or even millions of individuals who prayed for a successful outcome to a surgery that had a low chance of success, but the surgery failed, and they died.

Or, to look at it in another way:

For every 12 individuals that prayed for successful surgery that had a low chance of a successful outcome and got it, there are another 12 individuals who did not pray yet their surgery was successful as well.

Sometimes surgery that has a low probability of success is successful anyways, regardless of whether or not someone prayed for a positive outcome.


Prayer has no effect.

I have NEVER seen prayer have a negative impact, and cannot imagine how it could. I have, on many, many occasions, observed a positive effect. I can think of a dozen off the top of my head that I performed surgery on myself.

You contradict yourself in your own post, first it does nothing, then it makes for worse outcomes.

I am relating my own observations, personal experiences. As I stated above.
I think it is funny how absolutely certain people are about things that they can never prove one way or the other. If I see something happen myself, I tend to believe it is possible.

Perhaps someday, I will be as smart as you guys, but hopefully not.SmileWavy

Like the power of prayer? I agree. ;)

that article is interesting!

It's also interesting how a skeptic can announce that "One answered prayer is all it would take," and follow it with the idea that it should be something statistically unlikely.

Then someone says that he has had several answered prayers for statistically unlikely medical operations, and the skeptics respond that a dozen isn't enough, and that more proof is required.

I've seen some prayers work out, and I've seen others fail. Some of you know I'm fair-to-middlin' devout, but I don't understand how prayer works. ... But then, my belief in prayer is predicated by my belief in God. If I was an atheist, prayer would be complete nonsense, and I'd probably attack anyone who professed a belief in prayer as a lunatic, now wouldn't I?

(shrug) YMMV. Cheers,

Dan

Kind of reminds me of an interview of a survivor of the bridge collapse over the Mississippi recently. She was praising god as he had answered her prayers and saved her all the while, in the background, was a jumble of debris sitting on top of those who's prayers were not answered.
There is not a single unequivocal example of divine intervention of any sort much less prayer anywhere. If there was, belief in god would not require "faith". Certainty in the effect of prayer is an example of the human ability/trait of selective sampling and bias. This is, of course, why the scientific method was invented and why it is so effective.

Perhaps it was the simple fact that their family was with them, could not prove to your satisfaction, but have seen it on many occasions. They just did better when they had someone with them, maybe it had more to do with having someone sitting there. An infant will be more likely to thrive if you hold them, nurture them, did you know that? Could quote you studies if I wanted to devote that much time. Perhaps it is the human touch that does it, no gods necessary.

Lot of them just sort of die, give up; family praying then too. I remember this one woman. Sad, full of hate. I swear she up and died because they sent a black woman to take care of her. Failed to thrive and expired is what the chart said.

I have been witness to many survival stories as well as mortal events. It is interesting how often god gets the credit for the successes (not the technology) but is never blamed for the failures.

Same old same old...

"Show us PROOF!!"

Ok, what about x?

"That's not proof! That's just coincidence!! We want proof!"

Ok, what about y?

"Silly, I have a study that says y is bunk, put out by wehatereligion.org!!"

Repeat ad nauseum....

Repeat ad nauseum.... It must be repeatable on demand. How many times must the scientific method be explained? Look up the definition of "proof"or "evidence" as it applies to science. Then propose an experiment that will provide evidence to prove that prayer works. See how simple it is? Let's see what you can come up with. Good luck with that.:eek:

The late pope was prayed for by probably more people than any other person in history. Guess what? He still died. Big surprise.:rolleyes:

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

"...no gods necessary..." Now you're talking. In a time of need like a stressful medical situation, people want to believe that there is someone else in control. They want to believe that some higher power is really steering the ship and that there is meaning and purpose to the awful situation they (or a loved one) are in. Why did this happen to me? Why did this happen to my daughter? Why do bad things happen to good people? They want answers where there are none.

If one is able to stand back (like these scientific studies on the efficacy of prayer are able to do) and objectively look at the situation, there is no evidence that prayer is helpful or that supernatural intervention is taking place. People may think they see it (prayer working), but it's really no more than seeing the shape of a teddy bear in the clouds - it looks like a teddy bear, but it's really not. Like Steve mentions, the one woman whose car wasn't crushed by the collapsing bridge hails her survival as a miracle (and many people nod in agreement), but we humans neglect the many "failures" right behind her in the rubble.

hmm ok lets have a look....

coming from the POV that I am a 100% saved non-denominational <><



You shall have no other gods before me

Which I follow, however I do not feel outrage when somone denies the existance of either "MY" God or anyone eles' God.

nope I dont.

Wiki says' The deities of polytheistic religions are agents in mythology, where they are portrayed as complex personages of greater or lesser status, with individual skills, needs, desires and histories. These gods are often seen as similar to humans (anthropomorphic) in their personality traits, but with additional individual powers, abilities, knowledge or perceptions.

your obviously a lot smarter than me to understand the differances between Poly whactha ma call it and Trinty

But I will say that I believe in one God which is the trinity of God The Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit

I laugh at no one.



My face does not turn purple but I am sad when any atrocities are commited including in the name of Christianity.

However God has a plan for everything, and not being God I dont understand the mind of God nor can explain his thinking.


Once again I dont laugh at any belief's. You don't seem to understand the holy spirit fully and the reason for for that part of your question. I suggest talking to a good pastor or perhaps attending a church in your area.


Actually I dont think about any of that, I have enough problems with my daily walk with Christ.

Yep I do, God is a forgiving and loving. However he is just. If you go before a judge accused of a crime (lets for argument assume your guilty) you are judged, for that court to have any standing it must following its own judgements.

So if you dont follow Gods word you will be judged, point is (touches on your #6) that we are all sinfull and all fall below expectations. However MY debt has been payed on the cross, my bail, my sentance.

If your offered a get out of jail free card and dont accept it, whoe's fault is it that you go to jail, the judge ?

God can not go back on his word or promises

Not sure what you are asking.. that "modern science, history, geology" blah blah blah, has not convinced me of what? that I'm not saved, that God does not exist?
A man speaking in tongues hasn't either.

Speaking tongues is a gift given by the holy Spirit and has not a lot do to with any thing else. I am convinced through my experiences and life. I am saved through faith, no evidence can argue against that.

Not sure where your getting your stats from... sounds fony balony to me.

[/QUOTE]

Now there your wrong, I call myself a Christian, becuase I am a follower of Christ, I have a personal relationship with God which stands aside from "Bible, Christianity, and church history and religion"

The most important , actually the ONLY important thing that a Christian must know, understand and believe. Is that Christ died and then arose to pay for my sins, therefore I am saved

Romans 12
1
Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship.


Hope that helps your questions

Exactly. See the other thread last week on this very topic. We basically came to the conclusion that short of a personal appearance by God to an athiest (at least the ones on this board) NO proof would ever be accepted.

So the discussion is moot and stupid IMHO.

Jesus wept.

Your right, because he did...