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..l..l

I think if there was a demonstrable network of interlocking facets of our universe that had no natural explanation and could only be the product of some supernatural source then god belief would be easier to accept even without a divine manifestation. This is of course what ID claims and is trying to prove.
While the discussion may be moot, it certainly is not stupid. The future of humans as a viable species on this planet may depend on this very issue.

I vote this "best logical statement of the week" or something to that effect. Very well said.

Gravity?

Also known as Intelligent Falling. ;)

the sad truth about all of this is that religion...in any form has been the worst plague on mankind since existence....more have suffered, died or given life over to these various religions than any and all wars put together and multipied a thousand times over.

Religion is not all bad because it brings people togethjer in a common bond, it makes communities. But to blindly follow it makes others beleive that it takes advantage of people who otherwise should think for themselves.
PERSONALLY, I think that if there was a god..I find it hard that he/she would allow this kind of stuff to happen in his or here name. The fact that most religions are basically the same when brokendown to their cores, indicates to me that the big major religions are much more related than people think.
consider this,
Judaism was likely the first monotheiastic religion but was likely based on earlier religions that have died away.
Unhappy Jews later form a cult called christianity after following a disgruntled (or visionary) man called Jesus. This becomes the christian church in it's basic core.
Follow this up a few hundred years later when a salesman claims to have the word of god and visons and talks with God. His name is Mohammed, he at first follows many of the judiao/christian beleifs and actually initially aligns his religion/cult in a way that was to draw fringe Jews/christians in. He even goes as far as to sanctify the same holy sites of Jeruselem, Bethlahem as holy sites and recognize prohets such as Jesus, and Abraham to recruit people. His claim ids that they are god's chosen people, the third chosen to replace the formers (jews>christians then muslim) Later without success he realigns this to make Mecca the holy city as opposed to Jeruselem. His anger ate the Jews and christians for shunning his preachings becomes legendary....

all of these major religions fool people by making them think that they are the only "true" religion
all of these claim to be great, but really they are all derivatives of age old tales. it is nice to think that God is with us, but hard to see exactly who god is and why he/she would chose one over another if he is truely a benevolant being.
So essentially religion, as long as man exists, will be a plague amongst us because you cannot easily change people's beleif systems

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1211985039.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1211985052.jpg

Do the math.

Add up what was done by Hitler, Stain, Mao and Pol Pot.

I put this in there to toss you Godless Bastards a bone. It is not what I think, it is what y'all believe.

You will never convince me you are right, and I will never convince you that I am. We are both already convinced of our positions

If I were that interested in proving you wrong Nick, I would give you a little list of the pros and cons of religion. For every David Koresch, there are a hundred Mother Theresas, how do you think the math works out on that?

This is a fallacy of the first order. This is where almost every god believer fails in the intellectual world. While it is true that most god believers are incorrigible in their beliefs, most atheists/agnostics would easily be converted to god belief by reasonable (ie rational) evidence.
I have met a few GB's who freely admit that no amount of evidence would ever convince them of fallacy of their faith and I commend them on their honesty (although I don't understand how they can live with the cognitive dissonance). However, most maintain the delusion without introspective acknowledgment.

No it is not, but we would be talking in circles forever on this, and if you like, there is a thread all about it.

Apparently, you have never heard of the term, "Leap of Faith."

It is pretty self explanatory

:)

can't quite work out the ..l..l

"Leap of faith" and rational arguments supported by verifiable evidence are contradictory states. This is the difference between atheist/agnostics and GB's. GB's will take a "leap of faith" based on fairy-tales and atheists/agnostics request verification before jumping.

oh...i dunno...crusades(which killed hundreds of thousand in each one btw), the inquisition (alleged to be in the millions) bosnia, ireland...what happens in the ME now...wars carried out by the isrealites..muslims and such, it is endless. No mass killings like say Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot, but over many thousands of years it bears out (the Mayans alledgely killed 10000 in 3 days, sacrificed to their gods). History will record those guys above as terrible surely. but I stand by the statement that many more people have died in the name of religion than any war added together and multiplied.....not just the big 3 in religion...but consider them as a whole.

I don't argue that some people find solace in religion..heck Freud as much as said it "religion is the opiate of the people" and that is a powerful statement if you think about it...comapring religion to one of the most addictive substances on earth and all...
But, I chose to think that IF there is a god, he would be done proud by me for having individual thought, the will to live and the brains to do the right thing. Life is not about worring if i am appeasing some all mighty...it is about living MY life the BEST that I can, and to take care of those that need it and making responsible choices in as many ways I can. in essence, to live on this world in a positive way. People who can't take responsibility of their actions or faults often say things like "god has a plan" or "it's god's will" to me that is just a cop out

So in reality I live the way most religous people do (or should acribe to) anyway...but I just chose to guide my own ship rather than thinking that someone else is doing it because if ANYONE has a plan for me...it had better be me.

in addition i will say that I personally have no problem with religion..or people having a deep faith. That is their business...as long as it does not effect me. That is the essence of tolerance...and alot of religus people preach it but fail miserably in it's application.


sorry for the typos..i am a crappy typer(getting better though)

Did you think I meant prayer had a negative impact when I said “I can think of thousands or even millions of individuals who prayed for a successful outcome to a surgery that had a low chance of success, but the surgery failed, and they died?” That is not what I meant. I meant that the prayer had no effect at all.

I’m sure you have seen what you say you’ve seen: patients with a low probability of success pray, and then success occurs. Your mind latches onto these patients because that is what you want to believe. You are conveniently forgetting those who pray for success but success never occurs and those who do not pray (atheists) but for whom success does actually occur.

To show that prayer has an effect, you’d have to perform the same surgery with the same probability of success on some large number of people, and have half of them pray and the other half not pray. Then, there would have to be a statistical difference between the group that prayed and the group that did not.

Have you done this in your practice? If not, then you are one of those people who are certain about something that you cannot prove one way or the other.

Kang..it is more an attitude. If you feel that you will make it, i would think that the body will fight harder than if you just accept it.

"Seventy people were killed in Gujarat province on Thursday, as Hindu mobs attacked Muslims and torched a mosque and other Islamic facilities."

Amen.

How do you know they prayed? Did you interview them all?

Maybe they were atheists, like you.

Maybe they didn't pray at all, or didn't have time, or simply panicked.

You sound resentful. Really, in reading your posts, your outright resentment of god is palpable.

Did he beat you up for your lunch money when you were a kid?