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Wayne's Crazy Deck-Inside-Pool Project...
Okay, some of you know that I just bought a new house. Well, this house was perfect for me and my family (large backyard, good neighborhood, 4 bedrooms + office, etc.). But the one albatross was a big ole pool that was in the backyard. It's a great looking pool, don't get me wrong, but my kids are ages 3,2, and 1, so we don't want them around any pool right now. Building a fence and/or getting a pool cover wasn't really an option either, as the pool is a really weird shape, and the fence would run very close to an existing deck that the kids could easily use to climb over. Not worth the risk.
So, we didn't want to fill in the pool, so I decided to build a custom deck inside the pool flush with the surface. My original plan was to make it modular, so that we could remove it for a season and then replace it in the winter, but that was way too difficult of a project. Instead, it's going to be semi-permanent. There's a place in AZ that does this, but they seem to be the only place in the country that builds these types of decks. They didn't want to come out to LA. Their website is www.deckover.com, and here's a photo of what they do: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1214300888.jpg So, that was my goal for our pool. Here are some photos of what I am dealing with: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1214301291.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1214301303.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1214301075.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1214301090.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1214301139.jpg |
The pool is about 37 feet across, and 25 wide at it's widest point. Needless to say, it takes up a lot of space. The first step was to empty the pool. I hired the pool guys to come out and loan me a pump. It took about 28 hours to empty the entire pool (it was a relatively small pump). Believe it or not, they pump the pool out through the toilet. Go figure, it worked fine. The crazy looking bridge thing off to the right in the photos is this weird/cool underwater tunnel thing in the pool that you can swim through. The bridge across the top was weird too, it was only about 4" under water, so you could walk across it and look like you were walking on water. You could probably also sit over there with a tall drink sitting on the shelf and 1/2 would be in the water, and 1/2 would stick out. Cool, but alas, the water's gone now...
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1214301446.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1214301468.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1214301493.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1214301511.jpg |
Day one of construction (Sunday a week and a half ago) was a very unsucessful day. I didn't take any photos, because none of my ideas worked. I thought I would build the structure by hanging it from the sides of the pool, and then building the superstructure underneath. That way, the upper deck would be automatically level with the top of the pool. Turned out this was impossible to do by yourself (only one guy, and the wood is *really* heavy when it's 16' long. I gave up in disgust, and couldn't sleep that night.
Well, that night, I decided that I should call the guys in AZ and beg them to come out and build it for me. They said no. So, it was back to the drawing board again. I decided that the only way to really build this was do start at the bottom and try to build it like a traditional beam / joist / top surface deck. So, I got some concrete feet, some pressure treated 4x4s, and a bunch of 8x2x16 boards to use as joists. I placed the concrete feet as close to the sides of the pool as possible, where they wouldn't be angled too much (the pool bottom is not flat, of course). Then I used my level to align the two degrees of freedom on the posts (after sawing an angle on the bottom to "match" the angle on the feet). Sure enough, the posts when anchored to the feet stay up in the air, nice and level by themselves. It took me a while to figure out the best way to do this, and a lot of trial and error with the 8' long 4x4s. After building two of these posts with the "swivel foot" concrete pier, I placed one of the 16' beams across the top. This was a big improvment over the zero productivity of day one. Oh, the pink string was used to determine the top surface of the deck. I then measured down from there the width of the top deck material, the height of the joist, and the height of the beam. That's how I knew where to cut the 4x4s. As I will disclose later on, this is only an approximate measurement... Some photos: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1214301934.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1214301953.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1214301971.jpg |
Day two and three, I added two more 16' beams across the pool, and then tied them all together so the whole structure wouldn't lean over towards the shallow end and fall down. In the photos below, I just chucked some joists onto the top of the three beams just to show my wife and my Dad (who have both been tracking my progress) some semblence of progress towards a "deck". I quickly realized that the top surface of the deck wasn't really level from side to side, and quickly came up with a plan to build the deck in a few sections, each one supported only by four beams (to start). Then I would apply the top deck material (I chose redwood in this case - more on this later), and then I will shim or cut each of the posts around the deck to align the top surface with the edge surface of the pool. The goal is to make them the same exact level so that tricycles can be ridden seamlessly across it without any problems. It also helps to reduce the trip hazard.
Well, by the end of day four (forgot to take photos on day 3), the structure had the three beams and the joists simply laid on top for effect. The underlying structure is weak - the goal is to shim the entire deck to the proper height, and then re-inforce the heck out of it once it's final height is determined. It's strong enough to support my weight, but not strong enough to support much of anything else. When done, I will make sure you can drive a truck on it, but before the shimming, it doesn't make any sense to reinforce, as I will just have more things to adjust later on. Photos: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1214302515.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1214302534.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1214302553.jpg |
Day five, I basically took all of the joists, measured them out to 16" centers, and then used Simpson strongtie brackets to attach them to the front and rear beams. The middle beam does nothing right now, as I only want the deck supported on four points, for easier shimming next time.
I also began to cut some pieces and join them together to make the edge around the rounded part under the diving board (we will remove this later). I covered the whole thing at night with a blue tarp, as I wanted to keep as much sunlight off of the pressure treated wood. It seems that the sun heats the chemicals in the wood, and if it's not tacked down, it twists and bends very easily and then is basically ruined. I ruined about 3 pieces this way by accidentally forgetting to cover them up. Photos from day five: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1214302764.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1214302786.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1214302804.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1214302821.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1214302838.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1214302867.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1214302885.jpg |
Day six was spent picking out the deck material. I had to comb through a lot of bad pieces at Home Depot. I was originally going to go with a composite material, but I found so many bad reviews on the Internet about the material getting mold and mildew, that I decided I didn't want the hassle. I thought the redwood would make a nice colored texture for the deck, but my wife has now convinced me that we should paint it the same color as the outer concrete deck. I wanted to stain it a deep red, but after thinking about it a while, I agree with her. The goal is not to accentuate the deck, despite the fact that I will be quite proud of it.
I don't recommend dropping a 16' piece of redwood on your foot. I was bleeding through my sock after that (not good, still hurts now 8 days later). Cleaning up the end piece here, I cut all of the joists off (with my 7.5" circular saw, $60 at Lowes), and complete the end piece. I didn't have too much time to work, but I did have time to lay some of the redwood across and walk on it, so I could get a feel for how it would look, and to also show my wife and Dad some progress. Photos: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1214303164.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1214303182.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1214303209.jpg |
Day seven I spent all day attaching the hidden fastener system. Based upon Milt's recommendation, I went with the Deckmaster system:
http://www.grabberman.com/Deckmaster/ It truly seems to be the best one out there, and I needed one with some flexibility too, as this pool deck project is not your average, typical deck. The bad part about the system is that it appears to take about 2X as long to install as some other systems. You have to attach a series of metal rails to the deck using lots of screws and a cordless drill. This took about 4-5 hours to complete for this first section - what a pain! Plus, this section is 8 feet off the ground meaning that I was working above my head the entire day. Very frustrating, but I got it done: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1214303660.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1214303686.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1214303709.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1214303728.jpg |
Okay, so day eight was spent trying to figure out what color to stain the deck. Multiple trips to Lowes and Home Depot later (with gallons of stain I will now never use), resulted in me going with the Behr Deck / Fence solid color stain that will match the concrete almost perfectly. It's a greyish color with some pinkish hues in there. I bought a gallon tonight (again), and will test paint tomorrow.
In the meantime, I started on the other side of the pool. The goal is to build the same sized deck on the west side of the pool, and then join them together. Having already done this on the east side, this was much easier (and I only made a total of four posts, instead of six to start). So progress for day eight was four posts, two beams, and then I laid the joists across the beams to show some apparent progress. The lumber yard I went to for the other wood was out of stock on the 8x2x16, so I got it from another location. They must use a different type of process on this treated wood, as it was much greener (both are Douglas Fir). Odd that there would be a big difference in color like that. On a side note, I have spent just about as much time in lumber yards, Home Depto, and Lowes as I have actually working on the deck. It's very frustrating, but I waste a lot of my time trying to find just the right equipment / parts. No one place has it all, and the people at all of the stores (including the lumber yards), are either extremely slow or incredibly unhelpful. Home Depot and Lowes in particular seem to only hire the bottom of the barrel these days. The guy at Lowes had no idea what I was talking about when I was trying to inquire about ordering redwood, the guy at Home Depot didn't know what hidden fasteners were, and didn't know anything about the IQ hidden fastener system, for which Home Depot is a dealer. Didn't bother to help find out either. Very frustrating - it makes Pelican's great Customer Service surely stand out. Photos from day eight, assembly of the west side: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1214304385.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1214304397.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1214304405.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1214304412.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1214304420.jpg |
Finally, on day nine here, I was able to cut the joists on the west deck, and start joining the west deck to the east deck. Now, it's starting to look like I may actually finish sometime in July!
Photos (taken at night): http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1214304547.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1214304554.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1214304561.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1214304568.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1214304575.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1214304581.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1214304589.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1214304596.jpg |
A few more notes and thoughts:
- We're trying to keep the jacuzzi area open and operating. My pool guy tells me that this should be possible if we reconnect some of the plumbing to the filter, and install a heater (there's no heater there now). I'm going to make a mini removable deck that will fit over the hot tub area and cover it with the water still underneath. That's the plan anyways... - The cost of materials so far is nearing about $4K and change. Estimates from deck builders would normally peg this project at about $20-$25K if there was a crew doing it. I expect that I'll spend about $8K on the materials when I'm all done. Just for reference, the 8x2x16s were about $16/$18 each (or about $400 per deck side so far). The redwood to cover one deck piece was about $700. Brackets, nails, supplies, etc, seem to keep adding up every time I visit the stores! -Wayne |
very interesting project, the only sugestion I would have is to leave a trap door so you can still get to the bottom of the pool. The deck obviously wont be water proof so you will get water sitting at the bottom which will become quite nasty and smelly if it isnt pumped out.
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Kudos on the whole DIY aspect, but if I owned that pool, I would cherish/use it not hide it. Seems like it would have been easier and better to teach your kids to swim. My kids grew up with a non fenced pond in the back yard and swim like fish.
Surely you are not falling in-line with the whole wussification of America syndrome are you? :D Anyhow..... looks like you are doing a d@mn fine job. No doubt it will look very nice when completed. |
And we thought you were busy working on PelicanWiki :). Great job!
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You're breaking the hearts of summertime kids everywhere. :D
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Neat looking job! Kudos to you. Regards Gary |
I see another 101 Projects book in the making.
I think you should have an opening in the deck and a proper stair leading to the pool floor. Wire in some lights and you've got a funky cool guest suite, love grotto, kids secret clubhouse, or room for a big-ass slot car track with banked curves. |
Not a fan of this project. Very hazardous. Big covered hole will attract water and critters, and who knows what else. Wood will rot and support will be (????), if not already. If you don't want the pool, should just completely remove it.
Sorry Charles |
You can use treated (exterior grade) wood. It is no longer impregnated with the arsenic-based chemicals of years past (safer now). Or you can just stain it. Overall I think this is a good idea although to echo some of the above comments yes, I'd strongly consider building in some kind of access door. You can always put a lock on it.
Is your intention to keep the deck in place permanently or just until the kids get old enough to not potentially drown themselves by falling in a few years down the road? It's a perfect place to hide a surreptitious grow room too. :) |
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Do you need to get the foundation of the deck inspected by a builder or some expert to make sure the whole thing doesn't collapse in the middle of a barbecue or a backyard party if too many people are standing on it? Just wanting to ensure your family's safety in future...
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I know one of your children is special but I have to agree with Tim on this. A child fence is impenetrable, but only if you are diligent in keeping it closed when not in use. We had one up for the first 2.5 years of our little guys life, just in case, and we NEVER had a close call.
He has spent 2 summers in swimming lessons and now can swim anywhere in the pool, at 4.5 years old, he is not allowed in the pool unsupervised, he knows this and abides by it. He has been swimming since he was 2 years old. How are you planning on securing the spa? A 1-3 year old can just as easily drown in a spa as well. Regardless, You do nice work, I would not want to tackle a project like that, I would rather be swimming in it with the kids. |
One thought - Are the footings secure, especially the ones that are leaned over so that a line drawn down the centerline of the post passes close to the edge of the concrete block? I see a couple that look uncertain. Especially if people walking, running, jumping on the deck, and/or moving weight from one side of the deck to the other, cause the posts to eventually shift from vertical. Perhaps you could tie the posts together at their bottom ends, right above the footings.
Considering that a deck like that could potentially have 30 people (6,000 lbs) slam-dancing on it (so dynamic load many Xs the static load). Not that it will, but it should be built as if it could. One more thought - are pool bottoms very strong? I don't know what thickness the concrete is. Suppose 20 people cluster around one post and jump up and down? Just asking - I'm sure that MIT education hasn't gone un-tapped in designing this thing. |
needs more feet and triangulation.
pretty cool is there a city code for this type of deck? |
Funny, I just spent a small fortune putting a pool in and you're covering one up.
I waited until my kids were a little older before doing it but they have both been great swimmers since they were little. At 5 my son could swim half-way across the colorado river without a life vest. No I didn't let him do it by himself, and yes I made sure it was safe. He's 9 now and a fish and will swim for hours and hours, we have to drag him out of the pool when it's getting late. I'd be willing to bet that when your kids get older that pool will be back in service. In the mean time keep an eye on your water table and make darned sure you have very good drainage in the back yard. An empty pool does weird things when the ground around it is completely saturated. Weird things like trying to float. They can pop up out of the ground or crack big time. Prolly not a deal here in Ca, but in places like FLA empty pools do float sometimes. |
+1 for teaching them to swim vs. covering up but it looks like it will turn out nice. You're kids are young but not too young to learn to be safe around water.
My girlfriends 9 year old would have preferred it was left empty for skateboarding! I agree with the comments about leaving a way to access it for cleaning and inspection. I'd have a structural engineer look at the supports unless you've done the calculations necessary to ensure it will support a large group. That thing will be carrying a load at the next Pelican BBQ. |
I'd also be concerned about eccentric loading and seismic loading. Since you can't pound joist hangers into the pool perimeter (well, maybe you can but you'll destroy the pool) you're going to have to cantelever the ends of the floor joists off the supporting beams for some distance. This is fine in most cases, but one does need to consider the loadings.
If you're using 2x8s or 2x10s, it'll probably be plenty strong for the deck loading itself, but you also need to consider how the loads are transmitted to the soil below (it looks like you've just got a couple of columns bearing on the pool bottom, which may very well eventually fail/crack due to point loading in that location). If you're not going to use the pool as a pool ever again, it might be worth coring out the bottom under the columns and sinking in piles or pouring standard footings. Much stronger than bearing on what effectively is a slab-on-grade. If an earthquake hits, make sure to lift up the deck and check the walls of the pool underneath for cracks. Essentially you just have a continuous retaining wall there that's resisting who-knows-how-much lateral force/hydrostatic pressure. When the ground starts moving, since the volume inside is empty (rather than full of water) it might be more susceptible to cracking/failing. Just some thoughts to consider, which you may have already. . . I like the idea actually, but if the end goal is family safety, it needs to stay true to that goal in its execution - every detail. |
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I am going to speak up with Charles here. This is a bad idea for a number of reasons. You live in earthquake country. Remember those?? Even small, almost unnoticeable tremors will play around with your "footing" design. The possibility of that whole pile of wood ending up in the bottom of your pool one day are probably higher than I would want to chance. All of the negatives above are real, and I don't see the upside to doing this. My neighbor has a pool and I have seen their two small boys raised from birth to ages 3 and 7 there now. They have a blue nylon webbing system that attaches over their large free form pool and spa completey, and then is pulled tight from the middle by a pulley and lock system. It has many small attachment points around the pool and when in place properly an adult can fall on it and barely get wet. I think it is very safe, and adaptable to any type of pool. Please, think this over very carefully before going ahead. Sorry as well, |
Did it not occur to you to ask some Pelican's for help?
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Furnish and rent it out. Nice mortgage helper.
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Yea, in a seismic situation I think the lip of the pool would help to restrain lateral movement of the joists, but I don't particularly like the bases of those columns. Those pre-cast bell footings seem pretty cheesy to me. They're not really spreading out the loads much and effectively you're point-loading the slab/pool bottom where the columns bear on it. If it were me I'd core through the bottom and sink an honest-to-goodness footing or pile in there. If the earth starts moving up and down (as opposed to side-to-side) those things can literally "hop" off their foundations and collapse. Other than that I like the concept overall. It certainly can work and it will create an interesting space when done, but I agree - the thing that's most concerning me is the vertical support columns. They just look kind of skinny and not very strong at their bases - certainly not a lot of lateral stability there.
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Wayne, are you losing it? Living up here in the frozen north, I'd die for a pool like that in California!;)
Cheers, Steve in Calgary, CANADA " 6 months of winter, 6 months of bad sledding. Take your pick" |
I understand where you were headed from a kids safety/drowning issue - but I think you may have potentially created a bigger problem.
#1 how are your concrete post feet anchored? I think you need a lot more triangulation with secure base posts #2 you are going to need more access to the underneath to drain. #3 if you have the hot tub you still have the drowning danger issue. I brought my three kids up in a water intensive environment. From a safety standpoint - we were EXTREMELY diligent about pool safety and the kids safety around the canal (canal in the back yard) I sleep easier at night knowing my kids can swim - and swim well. |
I think Jeff's point above about hydrostatic pressure and the pool walls is very important, among the other very good points he makes.
AFAIK, the pool walls are not designed to operate as retaining walls and rely, to some degree, on the water pressure to hold them up . . . adding tremblors to the mix does not help. FWIW. |
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Mabye some beefy ventilation grates on either end would help with residual water that the sump misses. Quite ambitious project Wayne, hope you got help hauling that timber or sympathy points from the wifey. Lookin good! |
I won't debate the swim/avoid issue - that's Wayne's family prerogative.
I always thought that a pool bottom can't support a point load like those footings. I'm guessing Wayne thought about that. Good idea on the trap door to gain access to drain water. It looks good, but I would have used Trex or similar material for the deck. Zero splinters, zero maintenance. And you can sell it when you are ready to go back to the pool. |
Wayne,
That is a very attractive property. I can appreciate your concern with the small children and I think your project is a great idea. Looking forward to see the final result. |
Impressive project. I am surprised you couldn't "sell" the water to your neighbors for landscaping etc...
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