Surfs up. Christopher Hitchens goes waterboarding
 

An intersting read. Full article:

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/08/hitchens200808

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Here is the most chilling way I can find of stating the matter. Until recently, “waterboarding” was something that Americans did to other Americans. It was inflicted, and endured, by those members of the Special Forces who underwent the advanced form of training known as sere (Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape). In these harsh exercises, brave men and women were introduced to the sorts of barbarism that they might expect to meet at the hands of a lawless foe who disregarded the Geneva Conventions. But it was something that Americans were being trained to resist, not to inflict.

Exploring this narrow but deep distinction, on a gorgeous day last May I found myself deep in the hill country of western North Carolina, preparing to be surprised by a team of extremely hardened veterans who had confronted their country’s enemies in highly arduous terrain all over the world. They knew about everything from unarmed combat to enhanced interrogation and, in exchange for anonymity, were going to show me as nearly as possible what real waterboarding might be like.

View a video of Hitchens’s waterboarding experience.
It goes without saying that I knew I could stop the process at any time, and that when it was all over I would be released into happy daylight rather than returned to a darkened cell. But it’s been well said that cowards die many times before their deaths, and it was difficult for me to completely forget the clause in the contract of indemnification that I had signed. This document (written by one who knew) stated revealingly:

“Water boarding” is a potentially dangerous activity in which the participant can receive serious and permanent (physical, emotional and psychological) injuries and even death, including injuries and death due to the respiratory and neurological systems of the body.

As the agreement went on to say, there would be safeguards provided “during the ‘water boarding’ process, however, these measures may fail and even if they work properly they may not prevent Hitchens from experiencing serious injury or death.”

http://smileys.75thtrombone.com/o/yawn.gif http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/417838-water-boarding.html

Hitchens - a lot of steam with nothing cooking. Though I still like his spirit.

I guess the lesson here is that you don't want Hitchens to have info about you if he gets tortured. He would sing in about 15 seconds.

I inhale more water than that when I brush my teeth for Christ sakes.

I went through SERE school at Warner Springs in CA in 1984. I was fortunate enough to make it to "Freedom Village" during the escape and evasion phase, so I got a sandwich...which is good news, bads news.

They attached a medal washer to my fatigues, which I later learned meant I couldn't be waterboarded for 24hr. Good news.

Bad news? They like to waterboard the guys with washers (there were three of us) during the final phase of the mock prison camp.:eek:

It sucked.

Frankly, I was more uncomfortable during the time I got to spend in a poorly vented black box for being a wise-ass:cool:

SERE school was an amazing experience, one I learned a lot from...

I'd love to hear some of the stories Seahawk...

The school is remarkably well done...prison camp and all, including the guards. The Cold War was still raging so the focus was on Eastern Europe:)

Not much else, really, they basically teach you survival skills the first 5 days (including the desert), on starvation rations.

The last two days are evasion, capture and the camp. They do interrogations (both hard and soft), "re-education" classes and a whole host of other fun and games.

My roommate in Aviation Officer and a Simpleton School (AOCS) and flight school was a prior enlisted Navy SEAL. He went for the second time (once as an enlisted and now as an officer) about a month before I did. He would share nothing about SERE, only to say, "buy the program, make it real in your mind, that's how you'll learn."

He was right.:cool:

Cheney, Bush, Gonzales, Rumsfield and Yoo, among others, should have personally experienced this before deciding this technique isn't torture.

Good for Hitchens for having the guts to subject himself for his article.

Sherwood

I think one could have certainly considered Hitchens "pro-waterboarding" before his experience. Good for him that he did it and changed his mind.

I know a lot of folks too stubborn to admit they are/were wrong and change long held convictions.

LOL, the difference between perception and reality. Here is a graph from a recent online poll done by Sam Harris that suggest the vast majority of people believe that they can easily change their mind:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1215372459.jpg
http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/survey-what-do-atheists-and-christians-believe-and-how-strongly-do-they-bel/

It would have been nice to see a question on how we perceive others ability to change their mind to contrast the above.

I think waterboarding is torture and we SHOULD most definitely use it on terrorists. No problem whatsoever with it. They should then be buried alive with a pig carcass on top of them once they have no more intel to provide. F*ck them. Good riddance.

Waterboarding is not torture. Sorry. The reason why SERE used WB'ing was to represent the mental aspects of real torture...remember, the point of SERE is to instill the fact that there is no man that cannot be broken.

They teach you ways to try and manage guilt, the guilt of being broken. They also try and teach you how to manage being a captive.

I can tell you that, as a kayaker, the WB really sucked: I have lived in fear of my head staying under water since I first paddled with my Dad in the 60's

Scary, yes. Torture, no. BTW, after the second course of water, the SERE training kicked in...I gave them enough to get off the board and tried to manage the next event.

That was the point.

As a pilot, President Bush may have gone through SERE.

Rummy was a pilot too and a flight instructor. At the time he was in flight school, he was probably pretty sure he was going to Korea. I imagine the training for how to survive N. Korean captivity was no cakewalk.

Oh please. That video only succeeds in demonstrating that Hitchings is some fat, soft Aussie pussy who can't stand to have a little water poured over his face. From the looks of him, I'm sure he would consider going a whole day without food "unbearable torture" as well.

That would probably be easier for him than an hour without a cigarette.

This former Navy interrogation trainer says WB training is one thing. The real thing is something else. He doesn't describe it as, "feels like drowning". He calls it drowning.

You decide if it looks like a cakewalk. If so, please post your own personal WB video on YouTube.

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Sherwood

In my opinion, torture is probably a subjective thing, so I am not going to try to make a judgment in this regard. I've also never been waterboarded.

My point was that Hitchens has been and still is a proponent of the Iraq war and previously supported waterboarding, even outspokenly. He changed his mind. Maybe he is a wimp, but he seems like the kind of guy who sticks to his guns, even stubbornly. Not so much re waterboarding!

I admire his new position after the demonstration, exclusive of my agreement/disagreement with that position. I would guess that he did not want to believe that waterboarding was torturous.

FWIW.

Yes, you are. :)

edit: I think "we" typically want our perceptions and beliefs to remain consistent and are extremely resistant to anything that may upset this state. This thread is a great example and your post specifically, IMO.

OTOH, I couldn't agree more that "we" are becoming a nation of wimps. At least my Daughter's school still allows dodge ball and winners and losers! :D

Best,

Hitchens is British by birth, a US resident, and dont hold me to this, a US citizen. I think a day without cognac might hurt Christopher more.

If your done trying to insult your Coalition of the Willing partners, please carry on in your usual well informed manner Jeffrey.

There's still hope for this great nation! :D

The guy has obviously never lived in a college dorm or frat environment, or played on a football team, or spent very much time at all with other boys. I bet a good old fashioned wedgie would leave him whimpering in a corner for hours.

That may or may not be true. How do you know that, or are you just making it up because it suits your beliefs. And how does it discredit or discount his opinion on waterboarding? Have you been waterboarded, Jeff?

God forbid he ever find himself with underwear on his head. Or maybe he did once, and has still not recovered from the trauma.

Its fabulous the way the immeadiate position is to discredit the messenger. He's one of yours, Jeff.

Well actually he's not. He's an intellectual contrarian athiest, but he is an ardent advocate of Bushs War on Terror and a neocon posterboy.

But he must loonie leftie liberal with his undies on his head if he thinks, after having it done, the waterboarding torture.

I can do nothing to discredit this man, Stuart. His own video accomplishes that task quite well enough.

Now I understand why you are so wont to believe this man. He is another one of your "intellectual athiests" (any oxymoron if ever there was one...). You must stand in line with him to gargle Dawkins' balls or something.

How, specifically, did this video discredit him? After all, he was willing to put his bias to an empirical challenge and accept the conclusions. Have you?

Don't forget that Hitchens used to be a far lefty and changed his mind 180 deg. after 9/11 and became a neocon.

neocons are lefties.

Personally, if we could have drawn & quartered a few peace loving muslims & prevented 9/11, I'd have been all for it!

Jeff, have you been waterboarded?

He's still way out there on the left, except for his position on Iraq, IMO. He didn't totally turn right!

Actually, the article is very good. I think Hitchens expends the right amount of effort in an attempt to show both sides of this story. As for his "performance" during the waterboarding, I don't think anyone (myself included) has the right to make a comment unless they themselves have been through it.

Empathy isn't a strong suit among some on this board.

It's just water, for cryin' out loud. Never mind what the international community says. Never mind they have no personal experience with it.

Bloviate away! SmileWavy

First I have never been waterboarded and hope never to be waterboarded.

Second, honestly you could simply hold your breath for as long as he lasted.

A few points.

There is no waterboard training, you are either being waterboarded or you are not...in SERE you are WB'd, period.

Second, I like Hitchens.

Third, not only have I been WB'ed, I got to watch others get the same treatment...in fact, I saw it before it was done to me. I think that may have heightened the experience;) A good friend of mine, a squadron mate, and I talked about watching each other get WB'd...both of us thought we did "ok" but may have had room for improvement:cool:

I will say again, WB'ing is not torture. SERE was created to help potential POW's cope with the fact that everyone has a breaking point. The days of, "name, rank and serial number" only existed in the movies and created a false impression on how a real POW should act. SERE is meant to dispel notions of blind heroics: the intent is to teach you tools that may help you survive.

WB'ing, along with smoke used in Navy SERE on the east coast in Maine (too cold for water during the winter) is simply the best, non-invasive method of demonstrating the "breaking point".

I felt, after SERE, that I had a much better understanding of the proper conduct should I become a POW. The SERE instructors always stressed that you need to survive the experience intact, mentally and physically.

I watched the video. I can easily see how being WB would really suck a lot. I think that would be panic inducing quickly.

I know it's not really the same, but the Mythbusters did a Chinese water torture test. They tested the hot redhead. When she was just sitting in a chair having water dripped on her, it was never a problem. As soon as she was tied up, it took no time at all to freak her out.

Thanks Seahawk, it's refreshing to hear first hand information.

Why didn't you just hold your breath? Were they preparing the SERE comfy chair? :confused:

Who cares? The guys were fighting cut off heads, blow up children & hang people on bridges & set them afire. So freakin what! Waterboard 'em all if that saves one American life!