What's Wrong With Concours
 

This isn't really a technical issue, so I thought that OT might be a better place for it.

What do you think is wrong with Concours -- or with the attitude of people who are really into concours?

or.. what do you just not like about councours, "the scene," or the people and their attitudes?

In biology, especially ecology, we have a term called "museum mentality" i.e. "He has a museum mentality." It isn't a real positive thing to say about a scientist. OTOH, museums are critical to preserving our understanding of how things were, and therefore how they got to be like the present.

Q-tips. It's the symbol of OCD. :D

Driving these cars is more interesting to me than fussing over them like the concour crowd.

PLUS 1,000! I drive mine daily: when the interior wears out, I'll have it reupholstered...as the mechanicals get tired, I'll rebuild them...when the paint/body shows it's age I'll have it freshened up! There's no way I'm gonna leave it in the garage and worry about every little spec! To each his own...

Nothing wrong with Concours. They enjoy preserving their car. It is their car and they should be able to do what they want with it. If you have a problem with Concours, then it is your problem, not theirs.

I'm not a Concours guy either, but I do like to see preserved cars.

I see less reason for concours on newer or common cars. They seem to be very replaceable. But you gotta get chills down your spine when you come across a real 904 or an MB Gullwing. Those are truly works of art and need to be preserved. I've seen a 250GT on the street and all I could think was "God, I hope he makes it home without a scratch."

Concours is fine. I respect concours people. They aren't anymore bothersome than the modified crowd (case in point, the 250 bhp CIS thread going on in Tech right now). Needless to say, if one is looking for good historical baseline, in the case of the 911, concours people are probably the most informed on the subject.

In fact, if I had it to do over again, I'd probably buy a stock 911 and leave it that way. These cars are fine as they are from the factory, and in some cases, can be "adjusted" with their stock parts for better-than-factory performance.

+1

I've seen cars at concours that are less than a year old - what's the point?

Thom, you always struck me as a concours type of guy. ;)

there's nothing wrong with concours or the scene. I did concours PCA events for a couple of years. it was fun to me for a while but I must admit I got bored with it after 5 or 6 events. but that's just me.

I thought the scene was fine, tho. people were helpful and friendly, and the majority actually drove and used their cars.

The day I see a concours 996 touted as such, the world better have run out of oil, rubber, and people are using jet packs. Otherwise, what would be the point?

Not a thing wrong with concours...I always liked having a clean car. My pride was in actually driving to an event, and still getting a trophy...a benefit is that as you clean, you learn the car...

I guess I'm thinking of the cars that never get driven or end up in a collection as a trophy and never see the light of day. Museum pieces? It's true that many in the concours world use their cars and make the effort to clean them for judging.

I think that's what I like so much about the vintage racing scene - that an owner would be willing to subject their "investment" to the rigors of the track! Even the Rennsport Reunions: the very idea that someone would take a purpose built 908, 917, 934, 935, 962, et al, and thrash it around a track (even at careful speeds), rather than leaving it behind a velvet rope as a security guard stands watch! I believe the cars should be used. What are they being preserved for? A pharo's tomb? There's enough talent in this world to restore any car. Run it and fix/clean it.

I can get behind this. I've spent years now restoring my '72. All along, I've said that it will be a 9/10 car. At this point, it is more like a 95/100 car, but the same idea. The car will be done this summer and I'm really looking forward to driving it to the fall PCA wash'n'shine show. However, I've seen what goes into the 'serious' cars. A friend of mine has been spending the last several months preparing a GS Carrera that just scored 296 points at Parade. I respect the work and I was awestruck by the car, but I won't ever have the time to do that kind of prep myself. If I hit the lottery, sure, but in the meantime I've got family, work, and more interesting hobbies.

I wonder what a 1973 911E that was picked off directly off the end of the assembly line and dropped down into a concours event would score ;) (dropped from a very low height, obviously)

At face value, I have no issues with concours events. I do think that there is a 'trophy' mentality that is often encountered, however. I find it off-putting, and would prefer to see the cars being used as originally intended, rather than polished and coveted. Just seems like a waste to me, but to each his own.

Some folks with deep pockets buy a car, give it to someone along with a blank check and say prep it for concour, that to me is BS. Everything is put on new and you have a winner w/o much effort at least on the owners behalf.

Nothing wrong with that I suppose.

Um, yeah....

http://vintagebus.com/gallery/mod/image/2103506e.JPG

"Some folks with deep pockets buy a car, give it to someone along with a blank check and say prep it for concour, that to me is BS. Everything is put on new and you have a winner w/o much effort at least on the owners behalf.

Nothing wrong with that I suppose."

So true but not near as respectable as those who do it themselves. I'm glad the rich are restoring and saving the Bugattis, Duesenbergs and Ferraris of the world but a guy like Leno (who I know at least got his hands dirty) or the guy who restored his old MGB or 911 impresses me a lot more than a soemone who bought a trophy.

The thrill is when you beat these folks at their own game, doing it all yourself. Rainbonnet '93...an Oregon Region event. My old driver got 293 points, 1st in class, and was voted people's choice.

As a friend said later; "Paul, you angered all the right people." :D

That was my final serious concours...decided to quit while I was ahead.

I judge the Los Angeles and Palos Verdes concours almost every year. I judge mostly British sports cars. The biggest thing I see is overrestoration. Highly polished aluminum that wasn't done that way at the factory, or painted engine compartment when it was undercoated. People forget it's a competition like any other contest/sport. There is a lot to be said for original, but not everything has to be original/mint condition. To each his own.

I did one PCA concours event many years ago and will never do it again. Let's see... I pay money to have a group of fellow club members stand around my car and say, "You missed a spot" repeatedly. I don't think so.

"Overrestoring" is cheating, IMO.

Many of the finishes on older cars are hard to clean without changing the surface. For example, a 911 fan, fan shroud (on a 911 or 914), cad plated parts, etc. If you scrub these things with anything, you change and destroy the original appearance. Very hard to get it clean, AND original!

The cheap and easy way out - polish, paint and/or powdercoat the heck out of everything!

Concours - I don't like the idea of starting with 100 points and everything is downhill from there. I think I would prefer to start at 0, and have all my efforts be regarded as plusses.

Tom

GruppeB hates Concours, They escorted me to the door with sawzall in hand!

That was my point...a zero mile, magically transported from the assembly line 911 would not score a 100 at a concours event...which kinda makes the whole idea laughable.

I think it is valuable to see people research exactly what the factory did (and even better if they know why). And I enjoy seeing concours cars.

But I have two issues - first, it is irritating to have some dweeb walk up to me and say so & so is not "correct." What he should say is that is not stock. usually, I have it that way b/c I WANT it that way - i.e. it weighs less or offers more performance, etc.

Second, I recently heard a guy find out his radio, which he considered (rightly) as very ugly, was "correct." He was overjoyed. He should not have been. If it is ugly or doesn't work well (and you drive your car) then get rid of it and get something that does work well.

The new episode of Top Gear has an excellent Concours segment...hilarity abounds.

Yeah...but what about that Ghia? Will you show that around, even at some wash'n'shine type events?

I heard that the above "factory fresh" car was about 8 hrs of cleaning from being a Concours winner.

Concours strikes me as being somewhat more prone to attracting the "check writing" set than other automotive hobbies. Guys who know more about the monetary value of their car and its predicted appreciation than they do about its historical value and enthusiast appreciation. It's easier for this set to show their friends an obviously very nice, very expensive car and have them ogle it and heap praise upon it (even if they have no clue what it is) than it is for, say, the racer or track nut to show off his his car and have anyone appreciate it.

I do respect the DIY concours guys. I have to think, however, that their numbers represent a smaller percentage of their population than the track crowd. Granted, we have guys who know more about oil futures than where to check it on their own car, but they are in the minority. Anybody who spends much time at the track eventually has to learn to do more than clean it; they need to spin wrenches unless they can hire some one to bring along to do it for them.

I've heard it said that there are men who'll pay good money at a whorehouse just to talk to the girls.

There is an annual Concours event here that attracts the more ah, unsophisticated type of car owner. I love to go to this one, and other around inland central Calif. because most of the guys are DIY car restorers. This one guy has an imaculate Speedster, Convertible D, and a few others. He helped restore my friend's 356 GT. He taught himself how to lead fill the door gaps. Amazing stuff. Turns out his garage is completely converted to a restoration shop with FACTORY PORSCHE tools, including a restored hydraulic press.

I really enjoy concours events, but no way would I ever want to enter one. I value balance in my life, and could never go the OCD route (PP BBS aside).

Hey, rich guys usually know how to save money. It may be cheaper to talk to a whore than to a $200/h shrink (and easier on the eyes too...) ;).

Aurel