Is anyone here a home-based FFL?

Rick Lee · Rick Lee's Garage

I'm trying to look into getting my home-based FFL and not for C&R. The local gun website has a restricted section for FFL's and won't let me in to research the matter. The stuff I've seen on other websites looks kinda sketchy. Is it true that I have to be a certified gunsmith before getting a home-based FFL? Does BATF pay visits to inspect paperwork and safes for the home-based guys?

VincentVega · 08-05-2008, 08:02 AM

Rules changed a few years ago. I 'm not an expert, but have friends that used to have one. The store front requirement was their issue.

Overpaid Slacker · 08-05-2008, 08:04 AM

Ditto Chris' comment ... a requirement was added that you had to have a storefront, and I think that you had to conduct a certain amount of business and/or hours.

JP

Rick Lee · Rick Lee's Garage

I think the store front thing is more a local zoning issue and BATF defers to local zoning board or chief law enforcement officer sign-off. Around here I don't believe it's an issue unless you live in the downtown area. I'm less than a mile from the wild desert.

VincentVega · 08-05-2008, 08:10 AM

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/fflc/ffl/faqs_genques.htm

The first hurdle

Quote:

Does the law regulate who can be in the business? [Top]

Yes. The Gun Control Act (GCA), administered by the Bureau of Alcohol, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) of the United States Department of Justice, contains Federal licensing standards for various firearms businesses (manufacturers, importers, and dealers). An example of these standards is that the applicant must have a business premises.

Rick Lee · Rick Lee's Garage

Business premises can still be one's home. All I'd need would be a business license, sales tax cert. and fed. tax i.d. #. I can get all that online in a matter of hours. My main concern is changing addresses in the near future, since I'm renting now and the lease is up in April, at which time we'll probably buy a place. Also, I'm concerned about insurance. I have a gun safe, but I haven't bolted it to any wall studs, since I'm renting. If I were to really get into this, then I think a giant Liberty safe would be called for and that's not something you want to move more than for the initial delivery.

Seahawk · 08-05-2008, 08:25 AM

Maryland law may be different, but the FFL I use works out of his garage, has the business license posted and has a, "defined" work space for dealing with clients.

If you want I can get his number for you if he agrees. He is a retired Navy Senior Chief who now works on base. Great guy...has shoot on my farm a few times and brings great targets.

cashflyer · 08-05-2008, 08:28 AM

I used to be a home based FFL licensee. Some rules have changed, so don't take my word as current gospel.

>>>Is it true that I have to be a certified gunsmith before getting a home-based FFL?
No.

>>>Does BATF pay visits to inspect paperwork and safes for the home-based guys?
Yes. In fact, they can be very unpleasant to deal with because they have a very biased view against home based dealers. My first BATF visit was unpleasant enough that I moved my operation into a detached garage. Part of having an FFL is that you must agree to allow BATF to inspect the business premises (IE: your home).

Also, the BATF requires you to "be in business". In other words, you must have some public sales each year. You can't just be buying stuff for your own collection. You must also have proper business licenses.

I'm not sure how enforceable this is, but my FFL friends say you should also have a business phone and other typical stuff that "proves" you are in business. He said you should also place an ad in the local paper once in a while. That way, even if your sales are very low volume, you can at least look like you are trying to get more sales in.

Rick Lee · Rick Lee's Garage

Oh, I wasn't planning to do this just for buying guns at wholesale for myself. I really do want to wheel and deal and do transfers. The secure storage form looks pretty thin and only requires some kind of lockable safe. Does BATF get bent out of shape if you don't have real serious safe?

Paul, the local FFL's don't want to give out any help on the gun BBS. I emailed my (home-based) FFL in VA, since I would not be competing with him. He's a very cool guy and I've given him a lot of business in the last few years. I'll see what he says. Still, I'm thinking of going ahead with the local licensing stuff and then trying for the FFL.

I think it's a very recent thing about having a gunsmith cert. to be an FFL.

VincentVega · 08-05-2008, 09:12 AM

I'd be curious what your insurance co said about this idea.

berettafan · 08-05-2008, 09:40 AM

get the chips out 'cause alcohol, tobacco and firearms will be visiting.

this is where i lost interest years ago. no way i'm giving 'the man' a free pass.

on2wheels52 · on2wheels52's Garage

"Is anyone here a home-based FFL?"
It just seems that way sometimes.
Let us know how it turns out, I've been skimming the Regulations Reference Guide (2005 is the latest I've been issued) for sections applicable to your situation. Under 478.11 I see "A private dwelling, no part of which is open to the public, shall not be recognized as coming within the meaning of the term."
Jim

tabs · 08-05-2008, 09:52 AM

I was a home based FFL for close to 20 years in CA. When I moved to NV I gave it up because of local zoning restrictions. I now have a C&R license which suits me just fine.

The Fed defers to Local Ordinaces. If your local jurisidcition alllows a home FFl you can have one. Never heard anything about being a gunsmith???? I have a friend who still maintains his FFL and has a small office space in a commercial building that he owns. The BATF has come out twice around renewal time, the first about 10 years ago, in which they spent quiet a bit of time going over his books. The second visit was recently about 2 hours total. I was visited once at renemal time, the agent spent 20 minutes with me and was very pleasant. When i turned in my license I had basically the same experience. Generally if you are friendly and forthcoming you don't have a problem with them. The same was true of the CA DOJ. Their job is basically to help you comply with the law, at least that was my attitude towards them.

Yes the BATF can knock on your door and search the business premises. You have to state some business hours of operation on the form, mostly so they can come at that time. It is a good idea to have a GOOD safe anyway you wana cut it.

The reason why they can not exclude home FFL's is that many are located in rural areas, where a specific store front would not be practical.

Rick Lee · Rick Lee's Garage

Tabs, did you have special insurance for this?

A girl I dated years ago had her FFL and plenty of tax stamps too. She subleased some friend's dry cleaners in Arlington, VA as her business address to qualify as a storefront. However, she didn't bother renewing, so I don't know if BATF ever paid her a visit.

dhoward · dhoward's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by berettafan

get the chips out 'cause alcohol, tobacco and firearms will be visiting.

this is where i lost interest years ago. no way i'm giving 'the man' a free pass.

+1
Gave mine up too. As I used mine mostly for parts and personal purchases ( I was a pro shooter in the early 80's) the storefront requirement was too much of a hassle to deal with. As I recall the number of FFLs dropped drastically when the law changed.

From what I understand from my friends who went all out with a store, the BATF agents DO visit occasionally.

tabs · 08-05-2008, 11:27 AM

no insurance

Rick Lee · Rick Lee's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by dhoward

From what I understand from my friends who went all out with a store, the BATF agents DO visit occasionally.

I'm not worried about that at all. I know they play gotcha with some dealers and can really make life difficult if they have a hard-on for you, even if you're totally clean. My main concern is sort of a chicken and egg thing. Can I get the state and local requirements satisfied before the FFL or does it work the other way? If BATF defers to local officials, but local officials need some kind of federal paperwork to document stuff, what comes first?

Az911 · 08-05-2008, 11:57 AM

Ask on Arizonashooting those guys are always willing to tell people how hard it really is to have a home based FFL.

Rick Lee · Rick Lee's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by Az911

Ask on Arizonashooting those guys are always willing to tell people how hard it really is to have a home based FFL.

There's a big thread on there right now. They're telling me to save up on bail and lawyer money, say goodbye to my wife, forget it, etc. They won't let me into their FFL forum. I don't take them very seriously. They don't want anymore competition.

cashflyer · 08-05-2008, 12:11 PM

According to the current published rulebook...
http://permanent.access.gpo.gov/lps41631/2005/p53004.pdf

You do NOT need to be a gunsmith to have an FFL, however a gunsmith MUST have an FFL.

Declaring yourself to be a gunsmith at the time of application allows you to operate WITHOUT a storefront and without regular hours. HOWEVER, if you engage in buying and selling (in addition to the gunsmithing) then they will require you to submit a new application to correct your status to DEALER, and you will be required to have a store as on2wheels noted above.

Open that PDF and start reading around page 121 or 123... (thereabouts).