Out

[Zef]

Now...What will happen to these guys when back in US...? Just curious...!

U.S. Deserters Lose Bid For Canada Asylum
Canada Rejects Appeal By 2 U.S. Soldiers Who Fled To Canada In Protest Against Iraq War

Jeremy Hinzman, his son Liam, and wife in Toronto, Canada . Hinzman and fellow U.S. Army deserter Brandon Hughey lost their bids to have the Supreme Court of Canada hear their cases for asylum on Thursday, Nov. 15, 2007. (AP)
Stories

(AP) Two U.S. Army deserters who fled to Canada and sought refugee status on grounds of their opposition to the war in Iraq have lost their bids to have the Supreme Court of Canada hear their cases.

The court refused Thursday to hear the appeals of Jeremy Hinzman and Brandon Hughey, who were rejected by Canada's Immigration and Refugee Board in 2005.

The board ruled they would not be at risk of their lives if they returned to the United States, nor were they at risk of "cruel and unusual treatment or punishment."

Hinzman and Hughey deserted the U.S. Army in 2004 after learning their units were to be deployed to Iraq to fight in a war they have called immoral and illegal. The men argue that serving in Iraq would force them to commit crimes against civilians, and that they would be persecuted if forced to return to the United States.

Both the Federal Court and the Federal Court of Appeal have refused to review their cases.

As is usual in such cases, the Supreme Court gave no reasons for its decision Thursday.

Hinzman fled from Fort Bragg, North Carolina, with his wife and son in January 2004, weeks before his 82nd Airborne Division was due to go to Iraq. He had served three years in the U.S. Army, but had applied for conscientious objector status before his unit was sent to Afghanistan in 2002.

The 20-year-old Hughey was part of the 1st Cavalry in Fort Hood, Texas, and fled to Canada in March 2004.
Hinzman and Hugley's defense lawyer Jeffry House noted earlier this year that about 20 U.S. military personnel have applied for refugee status in Canada. He estimated as many as 200 American war resisters were hiding in Canada, waiting to see how Hinzman's case is played out before coming forward.

[m21sniper]

They deserve to be courts martialed.

[Rikao4]

They will get a dishonorable discharge,
doubt any jail..just go away.
will have a hard time getting a job..unless he goes to SF, be hero there.
myself , I would have to give them a special hug ..for my friend that didn't come back & the ones still there.
Then they can go and get their jaw's wired.
POS both .

Rika

[BeyGon]

They joined and then the realization that there isn't a free lunch hit them, they were actually going to have to use the training. Oh no, I think will desert. They deserve jail and should have to pay the military back for the time wasted on them.

[MrScott]

You're a patriotic American.
You enlist because you believe protecting the country should be the duty of every patriotic American.
You're faced with fighting a war you believe is immoral; not necessarily this war but think of one you might object to -- that war.

What is the moral course of action?

You might say suffering the penalties of objection is the right course.
So should we punish those who feel compelled to serve and leave be those with a lesser sense of duty?

Sincerely curious.

[BeyGon]

Originally Posted by MrScott

You're a patriotic American.
You enlist because you believe protecting the country should be the duty of every patriotic American.
You're faced with fighting a war you believe is immoral; not necessarily this war but think of one you might object to -- that war.

What is the moral course of action?

You might say suffering the penalties of objection is the right course.
So should we punish those who feel compelled to serve and leave be those with a lesser sense of duty?

Sincerely curious.

It was their CHOICE, there is no DRAFT.
So, you join but get to choose which battle you like, which war you think is the "right one" are you sure about this, this is what you think?
You join and think you will get some college out of it, but then find out that you really might have to use your training, oh my, this isn't the war I want to fight, can I wait for the next one. Oh no, I will just desert. Jail and pay back the military for your wasted training.

[dipso]

Absolutely nothing will happen, because this invasion was illegal.
The same thing will happen to these patriots, as what happened to the last.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehren_Watada

As far as I know it is still illegal to jail American Patriots.

Now torturing middle eastern patriots is a different story.

[BeyGon]

Is there a weasel farting in the forest?

[dipso]

I like how you ask a question, instead of stating an opinion.

WEAK

[Danimal16]

They will be held accountable. The thing is they made a committment to their mates and than bailed on them. The folks left behind have to carry the load. I think back to when Mohammed Ali did not report for the draft. It is debatable if what he did was right, but the real issue is he took the consequences as part of his belief. Some may not agree with his position but I personally respected him for the extent of what he was willing to accept for his convictions. Are these two willing to do that, seems not to me.

[notfarnow]

Originally Posted by Danimal16

They will be held accountable. The thing is they made a committment to their mates and than bailed on them. The folks left behind have to carry the load. I think back to when Mohammed Ali did not report for the draft. It is debatable if what he did was right, but the real issue is he took the consequences as part of his belief. Some may not agree with his position but I personally respected him for the extent of what he was willing to accept for his convictions. Are these two willing to do that, seems not to me.

I agree 100%. If they objected so strongly to the war in Iraq, you'd think they'd have the fortitude and conviction to stay in the US and be courtmarshalled. In my mind, that would have been the only uncowardly way to object. Running and hiding showed them for what they are.

Glad they aren't spending Canadian tax $$ in the Supreme Court.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Running like scared schoolgirls doesn't equal a patriot in my book. They should have at least had the spine to stand up for what they "believed in". Of course, in reality they joined for the large signing bonus, then bailed when they realized that THE ARMY FIGHTS IN WARS. Gasp!

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by dipso

Absolutely nothing will happen, because this invasion was illegal.

I'd love to see that argument put forth at his court martial. That will be some entertainment. In fact, I'd probably tack on a few extra years at Leavenworth just for using that one.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by dipso

Absolutely nothing will happen, because this invasion was illegal.
The same thing will happen to these patriots, as what happened to the last.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehren_Watada

As far as I know it is still illegal to jail American Patriots.

Now torturing middle eastern patriots is a different story.

Funny how your CA liberal butt-buddies voted to approve this "illegal" war, and continue to vote to fund it. Yeah, but it's all Bush's fault, right?

So I suppose a group of middle eastern men killing thousands of innocent Americans is a patriotic act in your book? What were they fighting for again? Oh, that's right, they hate our lifestyle and don't agree with our morals, so they want to eradicate us from the Earth. But don't worry, since we're all so bad I'm sure they'd be happy to have you.

[rcecale]

Originally Posted by MrScott

You're a patriotic American.
You enlist because you believe protecting the country should be the duty of every patriotic American.
You're faced with fighting a war you believe is immoral; not necessarily this war but think of one you might object to -- that war.

What is the moral course of action?

Geeze, I swear we have this discussion every other month around here. Why is this so difficult to comprehend?

U.S. Armed Forces Oath Of Enlistment

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

Nowhere in this oath does it provide for doing a "morality check" That, is a task left up to "the President of the United States" and "the officers appointed over me according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice"

That being said, this doesn't mean that you can "shoot a mother and her child" and say you were "just following orders." Some things are just blatantly immoral and should not be done (or tolerated). Something as gray as your own feelings of the morality of any given war, well, that's another story.

Despite the rantings of a few of the resident lunatics here, this war is NOT illegal. If it were, GWB would have been impeached long ago, tried in international court, etc, etc, etc...

When you're the Private, or the Corporal in a combat unit and your Captain orders you to "Take that hill!" you take that hill, whether you agree with his "strategy" or not. You don't pause for a debate with the guy, it's a lawful order!

Similarly, when your President orders you to war, (a war he was authorized by Congress to declare), you go to war. The order is a lawful order and must be obeyed. Failure to obey a lawful order should result in strict disciplinary action against the individual.

Randy

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by dipso

Absolutely nothing will happen, because this invasion was illegal.

This one statement alone makes it painfully obvious what a disingenuous political hack you are.

[sammyg2]

They deserve to be treated and punished as the cowards they are. Same with the liberals who support them.

Illegal? You have no clue. The UN approved it. The Congress and senate approved it, the President approved it, almost everyone approved it except you and that crazy witch cindy sheehan so that makes it illegal?
Bah.

[dipso]

The UN disagrees.


Iraq war was illegal and breached UN charter, says Annan
Ewen MacAskill and Julian Borger in Washington
The Guardian, Thursday September 16 2004

The United Nations secretary general, Kofi Annan, declared explicitly for the first time last night that the US-led war on Iraq was illegal.
Mr Annan said that the invasion was not sanctioned by the UN security council or in accordance with the UN's founding charter.

Even Richard Perle agrees, it was illegal.

War critics astonished as US hawk admits invasion was illegal
Oliver Burkeman and Julian Borger in Washington
The Guardian, Thursday November 20 2003

International lawyers and anti-war campaigners reacted with astonishment yesterday after the influential Pentagon hawk Richard Perle conceded that the invasion of Iraq had been illegal.
In a startling break with the official White House and Downing Street lines, Mr Perle told an audience in London: "I think in this case international law stood in the way of doing the right thing."

President George Bush has consistently argued that the war was legal either because of existing UN security council resolutions on Iraq - also the British government's publicly stated view - or as an act of self-defence permitted by international law.

But Mr Perle, a key member of the defence policy board, which advises the US defence secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, said that "international law ... would have required us to leave Saddam Hussein alone", and this would have been morally unacceptable.

French intransigence, he added, meant there had been "no practical mechanism consistent with the rules of the UN for dealing with Saddam Hussein".

Mr Perle, who was speaking at an event organised by the Institute of Contemporary Arts in London, had argued loudly for the toppling of the Iraqi dictator since the end of the 1991 Gulf war.


It is totally illegal. Trumped up charges, forged documents, etc.
I would not be surprised if there are charges brought on these guys when they are out of office.

There should be. For wasting all our money like that.

[BeyGon]

Farting weasels, ignore

[onewhippedpuppy]

Coming from the UN (Oil For Food anyone?), I'm not suprised.