.444/.450/.45-70 in a marlin lever????

charleskieffner · 08-22-2008, 07:41 AM

have read ballistics, but wanted feedback on any of these rounds. .45-70 seems to be very common in ads i have read and most important , lil po-dunker,hole in the wall,out of the way,off the beaten track pissant lil town gun stores. by lil towns i mean like alma(1/2 a blink),new messiko, reserve( 1-blink), new messiko, pinos altos , new messiko, mcnary,az., springerville, az. alpine,az, williams,az. .450 marlin and .444 marlin are non existant in towns mentioned. yes i know stock up.........but thats not the point. dont want to reload and go down that road, got enough dies btwn partner and myself to choke a horse.

about to pull trigger on juan of these in stainless for my younger 19 yr old spawn. dont care if it nails his shoulder, hes shot enough 12 ga shotguns and .300 weatherbys, .338 win mags, to understand recoil and planting stock in shoulder firmly. just want a good ass kicker of a brush elk gun for him. no fuss/muss/idiot proof goes bang everytime and doesnt ever rust. $543-599 are prices i have seen NIB.

any actual usage comments. da good / bad/ da ugly.

Drdogface · Drdogface's Garage

I have hunted with the 45/70 and loved it. Not sure about the knock down power of the 444 but I think any of them would be fine. The ammo costs need to be compared if that's of concern.

Jeff Higgins · 08-22-2008, 08:04 AM

The .45-70 fits your requirement for ammo availability. In standard factory loads, it is the least powerfull of the three, but it beats the other two hands-down in availability. You can get some pretty hell-bent-for-election loads from places like Buffalo Bore, Garret Cartridges, and the like. When you're in civilization, anyway. Out in the boonies it's going to be Remington, Winchester, Federal; the usual suspects. These launch a 400 grainer to about 1300 fps, which will kill anything that walks. The heavy duty stuff goes up to 1800-1900, matching the .450 Marlin.

All Marlin was really after with that one was to match what so many of us do with our .45-70's, but making damn sure one of their hot loaded rounds doesn't make its way into a Trapdoor or something. There is no advantage to it anymore, with the small companies loading some .45-70 stuff up to match. I see it fading away eventually.

The .444 is kind of an oddball. It shoots .44 mag pistol bullets way too fast, is the bottom line. The bullets are too light, too fragile, and going too fast to hold together on bigger animals. It kills little deer like the Hammer of Thor, with violent expansion but shallow penetration. I would stay away from it. Stick with the .45-70.

pwd72s · 08-22-2008, 09:45 AM

I range shot a friend's Marlin in .45-70...iron sights. Grouped well at the 50 yard line...way I looked at it, a great brush gun because of it's short length...easier to swing around without the barrel hitting a branch. Quick to the shoulder...pretty much the same as any good lever action, except for the bullet mass.

Yeah, I'd carry one for elk hunting in brushy terrain.

For the more open country, I'd still prefer my old Ruger M-77, scoped, 7mm Rem. Mag caliber.

Jeff Higgins nailed it...45-70 will kill anything that walks.

m21sniper · 08-22-2008, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pwd72s

Jeff Higgins nailed it...45-70 will kill anything that walks.

In North America, anyway. It'd be hard to go wrong with a .45-70 on his continent.

RPKESQ · 08-22-2008, 10:55 AM

A .30-30 will do the same as a .45-70 with greater versatility without handloading. People forget what a great killer the .30-30 is with the 170 gr. bullets. Much better sectional density and penitration. With the new soft plastic tip bullets they offer much better trajectory too. Plenty of loads available and commonly available everywhere in NA.

The .30-30 eclipsed all former lever action rifle rounds until the Win. 1895 .30-'06 came out. Every species of game in NA from Polar Bear to Pronghorns were routinely taken easily with the .30-30.

pwd72s · 08-22-2008, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RPKESQ

A .30-30 will do the same as a .45-70 with greater versatility without handloading. People forget what a great killer the .30-30 is with the 170 gr. bullets. Much better sectional density and penitration. With the new soft plastic tip bullets they offer much better trajectory too. Plenty of loads available and commonly available everywhere in NA.

The .30-30 eclipsed all former lever action rifle rounds until the Win. 1895 .30-'06 came out. Every species of game in NA from Polar Bear to Pronghorns were routinely taken easily with the .30-30.

Gee, you just made me proud of Dad's old Winchester 30-30. Oh, he hunted with his springfield 30-06 topped with a Weaver 4X scope...but he got the Winchester by buying a string of Elk's lodge raffle tickets back in the late 50's.

Dunno if it's still true, but the most common rounds for sale in most backwoods stores? 30-06, .22 long rifle, 30-30, and 12 gauge shot shells...

charleskieffner · 08-22-2008, 01:48 PM

hey thanks for the feedback. 45-70 been around since dinosaurs roamed, and it is available in small towns and still obviously is a good seller in rural areas or they wouldnt stock it. alma and reserve new messiko are located in the POOREST and LEAST POPULATED county in new messiko, so that tells me the round has a following.

son will have a .308 socom to use, a 30.06, my .338, my hk 91 all it his disposal to see what he likes along with buddies .300 weatherby. PROBLEM IS that i fergot to mention...........

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HES LEFT(wrong) HANDED!!!!!! arrgggghh!

so all the above rifles are not in his comfort zone. figured a lever action would be a good all arounder for him until we can build or buy a quality left(wrong)handed bolt action.

he says shooting right handed is no problem, but i know as well as all of us it is not natural being wrong handed shooting a right(correct) handed weapon. wish they made steyr augs in .308 or a belted magnum(their ambidextrious).

we are taking off for new messiko next week which means......

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>THE CLIFTON ARMORY!>>>>>>>>>>>>clifton,az. look it up. fer sure a po dunker one blinker of a town.

home of winchester/marlin/wwII winchesters orgazm shoppe. this place is wayyyyy cool. every concievable winchester you can imagine. nothing like it in the state. so my eyes will be peeled for a winchester, but like the idea of stainless marlin guide gun. but man if i found a big bore xtr winchester in cherry condition i will probably jump on it with the way winchester lever action prices are going up. i mean come on how many times a year do we shoot a 45/70 for petes sake. about the ONLY person that may shoot 20-40 rounds in a years time would be a rancher nailing varmints bugging his livestock.

gt350mike · 08-22-2008, 05:53 PM

About four years ago I was trying to decide between the three calipers and ended up with the Marlin 45/70 (with a 22" barrel; I personally don't care for the 18" version) because of the ammo availability. I agree with Jeff in the fact that the .444 is an oversized .44 mag and is someone of an oddball (IMHO)......Not sure about the availability of ammo for the .444 but my guess is that it's very limited.

The .450 is nothing short of a block buster and I'm sure it will rattle your fillings when your shooting it. I've seen .450 shells where I have bought my 45/70, but you don't have the variety like you will find with the 45/70.

Anyway you look at it, the shells are going to be a premium. I don't recall how much I paid for my last box of shells for the 45/70 but it was $25/$30 range. Regarding the "hot" 45/70, I've shot Hornady's LEVERevolution and all I can say is that it kicks like a F'ing mule! Not sure how the ballistics compare to the .450 but it has to be very similar.

Like I said before, I bought my 45/70 four years ago and I haven't second guessed my decision once.

If you want to see the ballistics for Horady's 45/70, take a look at this link:
https://www.hornady.com/shop/?ps_session=59c4f5e5174480f7aacac919f4e5a4e2&page=shop%2Fbrowse&category_id=e2efc3a895f8f6004aa5509977a8de6e

onlycafe · 08-22-2008, 06:33 PM

i had a 45.70 quite a few years ago. sold it, never regretted seeing it go to a new owner.
now whenever i miss it i whack my shoulder with a six pound sledge hammer 'til the feeling passes.

Jeff Higgins · 08-22-2008, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RPKESQ

A .30-30 will do the same as a .45-70 with greater versatility without handloading. People forget what a great killer the .30-30 is with the 170 gr. bullets. Much better sectional density and penitration. With the new soft plastic tip bullets they offer much better trajectory too. Plenty of loads available and commonly available everywhere in NA.

The .30-30 eclipsed all former lever action rifle rounds until the Win. 1895 .30-'06 came out. Every species of game in NA from Polar Bear to Pronghorns were routinely taken easily with the .30-30.

True, on smaller game, like deer up to the size of mulies, a .30-30 is all you need. However, with first hand experience in actually killing animals with both, I'll have to say the .45-70 hits much, much harder. It penetrates far deeper, if loaded properly. Hard cast semi wadcutter bullets (I use the RCBS .45-400 gas check bullet cast from wheel weights and quenched) it will shoot lengthwise through an elk and exit. No .30-30 will ever do that.

The factory loaded 400 grain JSP's in the .45-70 won't do that either. The only way to achieve that kind of performance is to handload, or to buy the Garret or Buffalo Bore ammo. That said, the standard 400 grain soft point at 1300 fps will out-penetrate any .30-30 loading. Not as dramatically as a hard cast semi wadcutter, but it still represents a healthy increase in penetration over the .30-30.

pwd72s · 08-23-2008, 08:49 AM

Once again, Jeff nailed it...the 30-30 is kind of weak these days, ballistically the rough equal of the AK-47 round.

RPKESQ · 08-23-2008, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

True, on smaller game, like deer up to the size of mulies, a .30-30 is all you need. However, with first hand experience in actually killing animals with both, I'll have to say the .45-70 hits much, much harder. It penetrates far deeper, if loaded properly. Hard cast semi wadcutter bullets (I use the RCBS .45-400 gas check bullet cast from wheel weights and quenched) it will shoot lengthwise through an elk and exit. No .30-30 will ever do that.

The factory loaded 400 grain JSP's in the .45-70 won't do that either. The only way to achieve that kind of performance is to handload, or to buy the Garret or Buffalo Bore ammo. That said, the standard 400 grain soft point at 1300 fps will out-penetrate any .30-30 loading. Not as dramatically as a hard cast semi wadcutter, but it still represents a healthy increase in penetration over the .30-30.

Jeff,
You are correct about these hot-rod handloads, but he stated he did not want to handload. Consider the Federal premium .30-30 Nosler partition bullet load. It has 2200 fps at the muzzle with 1827 ft. lbs. of energy. The better terminal ballistics, sentional density and bullet construction combination is better than any factory .45-70 load. Eskimos still routinely kill Polar Bear, Walrus, Seals, Musk Ox and Caribou with the .30-30 without a problem. Of course shot placement is key, but that is true of the .45-70 too. Don't count the "little" .30-30 out yet, she has lots of life still in her.

Drdogface · Drdogface's Garage

Some years ago I traveled to Alaska for a fishing trip. We stayed in US Forest Service cabins. They mandated that we have a rifle capable of killing Griz and would NOT accept a 30-30. That said, I have no clue if they knew a wit about it anyway

charleskieffner · 08-24-2008, 03:20 AM

well after going to 3 gun shops finally landed at 4th and got a guy that knew his poop on lever actions. he talked us out of the marlin guide gun because of its 18 1/2 " barrel. we ended up with the exact same stainless gun but with the 24" barrel. this model is the 1895XLR . the advantage is 500fps velocity and roughly a 300 yd gun.

this is achieved by hornadays "lever revolution" rounds. these are plastic tipped ballistically coefficient POINTY ROUNDS. unlike all lever actions which have your standard un coefficient rounds due to tube feeding and not having a pointy round ignite primer of round in front of it in tube.

hornadays round is 325gr bullet. lite weight gives better range before dropping therefore more velocity out of 24" barrel.

sounded good to me. younger spawn liked the gun either 18 1/2 or 24" so learning about hornadays new offering made sense. the coolest thing...........the salesman was also "wrong handed" and told my son that he is sick and tired of building left handed guns which have very little resale value and to learn how to shoot right handed. he did give some insight on shaking hands and stated a "wrong handed(lefty)" always shakes hands with someone(right handed) and his shooting arm is free! hahahahaha think about it!

anyway bought a sling, cleaning kit, box of 405gr remingtons( they were out of the 325gr hornadays) and off we go today to blast 20 rds and get kid used to KABOOM! $699 for marlins 1895XLR w/ laminated gray stock. kid was on cloud nine. took it over to buddies house who i hunt with and picked up some more reloads for my .338 win mag and showed him the marlin. his kid stated " dad when are YOU gonna buy me a gun like that!" that made me feel good. so younger spawn just got his birthday and xmas present early. im a "good" dad until after shooting today when he has to go back to work for me outside to pay off his bilstein shocks for his truck that i fronted him.

charleskieffner · 08-24-2008, 03:55 AM

hornaday "flextips" 325 grain $29.99 a box on midway.com

2050fps

3032 ft lbs. slamming upside a BULL ELK! WHAP!

be a hero for a day.........be a father figure...........buy yer spawn a gun. you'll be glad ya did and hell even learn something!

bottomline..........this is how i dodged buying a "wrong handed" gun! LOL!

Jeff Higgins · 08-24-2008, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RPKESQ

Jeff,
You are correct about these hot-rod handloads, but he stated he did not want to handload. Consider the Federal premium .30-30 Nosler partition bullet load. It has 2200 fps at the muzzle with 1827 ft. lbs. of energy. The better terminal ballistics, sentional density and bullet construction combination is better than any factory .45-70 load. Eskimos still routinely kill Polar Bear, Walrus, Seals, Musk Ox and Caribou with the .30-30 without a problem. Of course shot placement is key, but that is true of the .45-70 too. Don't count the "little" .30-30 out yet, she has lots of life still in her.

Oh, I absolutely agree. The poor little .30-30 doesn't get a fair shake at all in today's world of ultra magnumitis. I would quite happily hunt for the rest of my days with one and not feel at any great dissadvantage whatsoever. The key here is "hunt". Like those Eskimos do. Hell, many of them even use the little .223 for all of their hunting. They think nothing of it. They are more patient than most of us.

Garret and Buffalo bore provide the hot rod loads for anyone who does not want to handload. I've never used them, so I can't say one way or another how accurate they might be. They are loaded with cast bullets, which in my experience has always been a problem from commercial loaders.

I shoot primarily cast bullets from all hand guns, and most rifles over .40 caliber. I think I have reached a good understanding of what it takes to make them shoot well. I believe it is well neigh impossible to develop a generic load that will shoot well in all guns chambered in a particular caliber. Bullet fit to a particular gun, and the used alloy are critical. Every commercially cast bullet I have ever tried to use (when too lazy to cast my own) have been too hard and of dubious quality. It really is a handloader's game.

I dunno, maybe these guys have hit on a compromise that works in most guns, at least well enough to hunt with. If so (as you quite rightly observe) the performance advantage over factory standard velocity soft points is definitely worthwhile. They better than double, or even come close to tripling, the energy of the factory loads. That's nothing to sneeze at.

pwd72s · 08-24-2008, 09:23 AM

I used to pack the old 30-30 along on hunting trips...a back up gun in case something happened to the 7mm Remington mag caliber rifle. I'll confess to preferring a bigger club. "Magnumitus" if you will. Before I had a magnum rifle, I took an elk with my .257 Roberts caliber Remington...barely legal by the hunting regs of the time. But still....bigger club theory for me.

Jeff Higgins · 08-24-2008, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pwd72s

I used to pack the old 30-30 along on hunting trips...a back up gun in case something happened to the 7mm Remington mag caliber rifle. I'll confess to preferring a bigger club. "Magnumitus" if you will. Before I had a magnum rifle, I took an elk with my .257 Roberts caliber Remington...barely legal by the hunting regs of the time. But still....bigger club theory for me.

It definitely never hurts to hit 'em harder. Until it reaches the point where it hurts to hit 'em harder. The recoil and blast from today's mega magnums has a way of making poor shooters out of good shooters. The 7mm Remington mag doesn't fall into that class; it's an eminantly useful, friendly caliber. I had an orginal blued stainless barrel M700 in that caliber for years, until I traded it off towards a Ruger #1 in .458. Oh, and I killed my first deer with a sporterized '98 Mauser in .257 Roberts. Great caliber.

RPKESQ · 08-24-2008, 05:55 PM

Apart from Africa I have little use for magnum rounds. There I most commonly used a Rigby double rifle in .470 Nitro Express and a Holland & Holland in .600 NE and did some experimenting with the then new H&H .700 NE. But my love runs to stalking and I enjoy the smaller calibers. I use .22 Hornet for Roe deer and smaller and a 6x55mm or 7x57 for anything larger like fallow Deer & Red deer, up to and including Moose and African antelope. I have used the .257 Roberts and find that a delightful caliber.