Trekkor never guesses, he's 100% sure that God will give him a personalized welcome speech when Trekkor's mortal body expires, and his spirit arrives in the afterlife

Thanks for the laughs this morning, guys.


KT

There is quite a bit of chatter about the 'LHC' on the web.


KT

There is always a quite a bit of chatter on the web whenever something interesting in science happens...

People fear science, and they verbally abuse that which they fear. They especially fear science that is past that point where it becomes "alien" to them, meaning, it's process and results are not anything like the block sliding down an inclined plane.

In 3 months they'll all stop chattering and forget about it. In a year the first results will finally come out, and everyone will sit back and say "wait, weren't we worried about that crazy thing a year ago?" and then NOVA will have a Hollywood style show about it (where they dumb it down to the point that they make false statements) and all will be right in the world again.

There seems to be quite a few people that are more than concerned about 'problems' their experiments could create.


KT

there's also quite a few people who are concerned about area 51, big foot, the yeti and that 9/11 was an inside demolitions job by either CIA or Mossad...some even think Hitler made it out of Berlin alive...Some even believe there's some kind of god, based rumors that are over 2000 years old, or that Yuri Geller has special powers , based on the spoon bending trick...

True. :D

All things that do not concern me.

There are, however, many 'smart people' that believe the LHC experiments are dangerous and could lead to irreversible effects.


KT

who are they?
how smart are they?
what's their field of expertise?

post some names Trek... i know i'm a dumbass when it comes to fysics... but i'll take the explanation of the smart people who are running it... what i hear from them, seems to make sense...

so who has anything to say other wise, and is on their level of "smarts" ?

I have not taken note of any names or credentials at this point.

I'm sure if it were beyond curiosity for me, I'd have that info for you.


The one thing I have gathered, is that even the ones conducting the experiments are relying on unproven theories to bolster their confidence in the outcome of what they are doing.

In other words, what ever happens, they think it will be OK...


KT

so your curiousity brought you far enough to realize something is going on
and to question those conducting the experiments, and their theories , based on the comments of "smart people"
But your curiousity ain't of the sort you'll bother checking the credentials of those smart people who say the experiments might be a problem??

aaah shucks... it's the whole is there a god discussion all over again
the same fuzzy wuzzy logic of the 3rd kind...

NOTHING WILL HAPPEN.

You should be far more worried about lightning hitting you or someone bumping into a window on the 30th story of a building and the glass slicing your skull in half. These are far more likely to happen, and are far more likely to ruin your day than anything the LHC is going to do.

Also, everyone is going to be posting "what a waste of money!!!" when they don't find the Higgs within 20 minutes of turning it on. :rolleyes:

Boy, I'm sure glad that the Top quark ended the world as we know it, which these same chicken little postulated at the time.

That’s why it’s called an experiment. This is how we learn.

You seem to imply that not knowing the results of an experiment in advance somehow exposes the ignorance of the scientists, or reduces the value of the experiment or means the science is invalid somehow.

You are dead wrong.

The whole point of conducting an experiment is to see what happens. Again, this is how we learn. If we knew what would happen in advance, what would be the point of conducting the experiment?

Trekkor, we all already know this, but you have a lot to learn about what science is and how it works. Just because you don’t understand it doesn’t mean it’s wrong.

I 'stumbled' across the story a few days ago on CNN.

As far as the 'smart guy' thing goes, are you suggesting that only the people directly involved in the experiments should be allowed to object? :rolleyes:

I neither support nor object.


KT

so what are you doing Trekk?? just moaning about why we should be worried, why we should start reading other opinions like those of the smart people you refer to...even though you don't care enough to actually dig up some facts, backgrounds or opinions for yourself???

give me a break...

Oh?

Do you know what is going to happen in Cern, Kang? Don't you think experiments should have a predictable outcome?

I believe doing something, just for the sake of doing it, is reckless.

They are not dropping baking soda in a vinegar filled test tube, Kang, they are violently tearing apart the most powerful and unknown units in the known universe.

Aren't their own words something to the effect of creating the same conditions the split second after the Big Bang?

That doesn't sound 'harmless' at all.


KT

Just killing time on PPOT...You? :D


KT

In thinking about it, splitting atoms has not been the best thing for mankind.

If I had to guess, I'd suspect these tests are likely for creating the next generation of 'super weapons'.


KT

I don't even have a tinfoil hat...


KT

The Universe survived it once, and seems to be thriving.

They are not recreating the conditions of the big Bang, they are not tearing Higg's particles apart, they are doing the same thing they've done at half a dozen other accelerators for decades now. None of them have rifted time and space, and neither will this one. The LHC is MAGNITUDES too weak to do some of what the naysayers are claiming.

Their ONLY hope of seeing ANYTHING on the scale of the Higgs (well, it's predicted energy) is that quantum fluctuations permit the Higgs to exist at a much small energy level than normal, if it borrows heavily from the space-time around it. The more it borrows, the shorter it can borrow it, and the less likely to catch it at that moment. The LHC is waiting for that one Higgs to take out a $50,000 payday loan with a 5 day payment date...it's gonna take a HUGE borrow and a TINY payback time.

It's not for the sake of doing it
it's for prooving theories that are beyond your level of reasoning.

you say you don't object or support, yet you moan about it like an oldtimer with colestomy bag that's full... You bring nothing to the table, no insight, no facts, not even any decent arguments... all you do is kill time you say, which makes you a trolling waste of time for everybody else...

We are already creating similar conditions to the "Big Bang" and aside from radiation issues (which is controlled through properly shielding), it is harmless.

Hopefully we (Fermilab) can find the Higgs before things really get rolling at CERN.

Every post you make on any subject remotely related to science just exposes your ignorance, not only on the subject matter, but also on science itself, and the scientific process.

Like I said above, if they knew exactly what was going to happen, why would they conduct the experiment? In cases like this, they have mathematical models, mathematical predictions, as to what should happen. They run the experiment to confirm or deny their mathematical predications. If they confirm one, or some, of the predictions, then they have reason to believe that the other predictions that the models make are correct. If they don’t confirm the predictions, then they have to start over with new mathematical models. But they won’t know until they run the experiment.

If we never did things just for the sack of doing it, we probably would have never invented fire. If fire were to be invented today, I can see people like you shouting about the dangers of such a horrible, uncontrollable thing. You’d fear it would burn up the entire world. You would claim it was the work of the devil. You would claim that unless we knew exactly what would happen, we should never ignite that very first fire.

There are always “experts” that predict doom and gloom for things like this. They predicted doom and gloom for travelling to the moon, for the Manhattan project and other such experiments. They have always been wrong, and they are wrong this time.

As for the safety concerns of a micro black hole: remember, the gravitational pull of an object is directly proportional to its mass. The mass of a micro black hole, say one or two subatomic particles, is very very small. The gravitational pull of such an object will be trillions and trillions of times less than say, the computer monitor you are looking at right now.

Again, just because you don’t understand it doesn’t mean it’s wrong.

Do you know Tony Liss from UofI? I took his Atomic class when they found the Top quark. He was teaching 2 or 3 days a week, then jetted up to Fermi. Every Monday we were being taught stuff that they had discovered 2 days earlier. Very heady stuff!

Splitting of atoms has benefited man much more so that it has harmed.

Go Fermilab!! SmileWavy

Stijn?

Are you serious?

Maybe PPOT is something more than I had realized.
The place where the mysteries of the universe are realized by the greatest minds human history has ever known...And one troll.

Stijn, correct me if I'm wrong. Aren't you the self proclaimed local LSD expert/advocate? :D


KT

Yep, sounded like the next evolutionary step of Blacks on Blonds.

I scoff at black holes!

maybe some hardcore rappers can help trek out?

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Tony is a researcher/user at CDF. I know of him, but never worked with him directly.

Kang, you can insult me all day long.

Bottom line is, the outcome of the experiments is a guess and so is the outcome if something goes wrong.

Face it!


Just like the first atomic bombs. They weren't 100% on what was going to happen, but they were happy to gamble on it.

Mike, that comment is hardly a statement of fact. It's a just an opinion without a definitive answer.


KT

No, they are not guessing. They have very precise mathematical models that predict a range of various results.

The very first paragraph of the Wiki site you posted says this:

Your fear comes from your lack of understanding.

I never said I was afraid, Kang.

I said they don't know what is going to happen.
Do they they have a failsafe if something goes horribly wrong?

Do they?


KT

http://www.uslhc.us/


Safety aside. Are the experiments looking for the 'force' that holds together all matter in the universe?


KT

Well, then to quantify my statement, I would suspect that the power generated from nuclear plants has benefited quite a few folks. Look what nuclear medicine has done for man. Everything from treating cancer to imaging techniques. My Dad received a dose of radioactive iodine back in the 1960s that corrected a life-threatening thyroid problem.

Nuclear techniques are also used to better understand materials. Everything from high-temperature superconductivity (a whopping 55K now!!) to understanding how materials pass through cell membranes. Splitting of atoms is currently being used to develop the next generation of magnetic storage devices (hard drives). Alot of people use hard drives. It is also used to design better welds by allowing a better understanding of internal stresses.

All from splitting atoms.

No. From my limited understanding, the LHC will hopefully bolster the Standard Model and provide insight into what gives particles mass. We don't really understand that right now.

Mike, thanks for the post. Yes, there are are quite a bit of things that seem to benefit mankind, you are correct.

I guess my thinking was clouded by the ever present threat of nuclear war.
We're not out of those woods, yet.


KT

I'll state that I'm tickled pink about the possibility of finding the Higgs particle, because it would be a strong support mechanism for the current Inflationary Theory. As such, it should get rid of that annoying argument against the Big Bang..."how can you create the Universe out of nothing?".

This experiment will also create a strange, dynamic link between the Standard Model, General Relativity, Special Relativity and Quantum Mechanics. All 4 of these incongruent theories must prove to be relatively correct for this Higgs production to take place. All 4 are going to be pushed to their current limits...something scary and fascinating. It will also put another feather in the cap of Human Capability, that these 4 theories could be found, calculated, understood, extrapolated upon and then verified, all by us lowly little specs.

Here we go! :D



KT

Nope. I said nothing of the existence or lack thereof of a Prime Mover, nor of the potential Forces that put things in motion. The Higgs particle infers a Higgs field, which was postulated to exist before the Big Bang. The massive inherent energy in this field (coming from the massive mass of the particle) could easily feed the Inflationary Universe. The total energy of the field is still zero, but it rapid fluctuates between positive and negative energy because of the quantum fluctuations (yes, negative energy exists, you see it everyday when something falls to the ground...gravity can be a negative energy field). The Universe could have spawned from a section of the Higgs field when it was in a positive swing.

The existence of the big Bang does not prove or disprove anything about God. However, the Higgs particle can get rid of the somewhat childish response from people of "how can you create the Universe out of nothing?". Well, it wasn't created out of nothing, it was created out of the properties of the God particle.


None of the above is a statement of fact, it is a statement of my current understanding of the modern Inflationary Theory, my discounting of some of the side "multi-verse" theories, and my understanding of the 30+ year search for the Higgs.

well, maybe you should eat some acid, maybe that would open your mind a bit...
if anyone can use it, your that one...

you fail to deliver the most basic arguments
you yourself said, i'm not against it or for it.. yet all you do is bring weak "boohooo, it might be dangerous, but i don't know why, just that some smart people said so, no i don't know who, or where, or what would make them smart "


PPOT is many things, but if you going to talk, try to understand what you talk about, and be consistent...
i may occasionally yap about lsd.. but i can, because i have eaten it, i know what it is... and i'm ok to not take it seriously... and use it in in a context of this thread, in response to the boogey man stories by the likes of yourself, who keeps talking about what if it would go wrong with the collider, who keeps pressing, yet can't even say why he thinks he keeps pressing, or fails to link up with the arguments why the collider thing is an important thing that mightl answer many things..

all you said so far, was " they shouldn't do it just for the sake of doing it"



http://media.g4tv.com/images/blog/20...4784490542.jpg

I stopped doing that over 20 years ago.

FAIL?


KT