I don't have audio at work, so I'm not sure how much that video was MEANT to be comedy gold...


I gotta say...that's a damned impressive black hole the created there. Sucker musta been at least 5 solar masses!

The Mayan calendar doesn't say the world will end on 21 December 2012. It simply states that it's the end of a solar cycle . . . You guys keep your scientific mumbo-jumbo, I'll keep wearing my tinfoil cap. Regardless, we all gonna die.

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2006/10mar_stormwarning.htm

I'm glad you cleared that up. I was worried.... :D:D:D

There's a show on the 'History Channel' about the LHC right now.


KT

Well, I hope you're watching it. :)

The show offers some good stuff re the basis of science and fundamental "learning".

Of course I'm watching it.

You?


KT

They said they are searching for the truth of why things are the way they are. :rolleyes:

"God Particle"... Classic.


KT

What am I supposed to glean from this thread? I understand both sides (I think). Trek believes an experiment to create a black hole is a fruitless endeavor. Others believe the opposite.

My question is: why would this experiment not be a waste of time? How will we know it is successful? What will we learn from it?

Fascinating stuff, btw. I don't understand two-thirds of what's being said here, but that's the fun of trying to follow, then figure out each person's post. SmileWavy

Here's some good summaries for you:
http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/09/the-bosons-that.html

I don't know that they think they will create any black holes.
They don't seem to know what they are going to find.

They do say that if black holes are created they won't be dangerous.


How would they know that?


The other thing is that this is supposed to be the most powerful collider ever.
From the show, I heard they will accelerate the particles to 30kph less than the speed of light.
Is that correct?

So things could happen they could never anticipate, right? Maybe dangerous, right?


I hope all goes safely.


KT

Don't mind frenchy, he is just bitter because he does not have any friends, imaginary or otherwise, and feels compelled to denigrate anyone he does not agree with, happens all the time with lonely folks.


I can't imagine any black hole being anything but dangerous.

They don't really know what will happen when they light that candle, but they do think they have a pretty good idea.

Wouldn't that be ironic if it created an electromagnetic pulse and fried the whole rig? Or made a little hole in the space/time continuum and France fell into it

Whoa, dude! That's some crazy stuff. I mean, I think I get it. Here's what strikes me. This photo guys in hardhats, standing beside the accelerator:
http://blog.wired.com/photos/uncateg...09/09/lhc4.jpg
Taking into account Trek's concern about safety, why are these guys wearing hardhats?

Also, are the things being smashed actual light? Because the only tangible I got from that article aside from digital cameras and 600 million flashes, was "...enough hydrogen to fill a fine grain of sand..." (sic), and I don't think they intend on smashing particles the size of sand grains - or do they?

In short, what's being smashed to form smaller, rarer particles? How large are the initial items being smashed? Will there be a sound from the "smash?" An explosion? What's the result of the smashing?

It's cool - I'll grant that. But Trek still has a point. You have to wonder what $10 billion and seventeen miles of pipe filled with 9,000 magnets can cause.

Well, it's 9:24 AM in Zurich right now. They should be lighting the candle sometime soon...

something strange happening over here

NOOOOOOoooo...... we're all going to die!!!

By the way, you can watch the world come to an end via streaming video, live, at:

http://webcast.cern.ch/index2.html

Did the world come to an end? Did we all die? What the hell is happening??? :eek:

They ran the tests which were a success they will start to smash real protons in a few weeks/months so were safe for awhile.

Those guys are not standing there right now, I can guarantee that. That spot is a high radiation area right now.

I work at an accelerator facility. We do this every day. No EMPs, no other ill effects.

One of the best analogies I've read is that decades ago when we discovered the existence of electrons, no one had any idea what good could possibly come of that. We wasted all that money and all we discovered was electrons. Now look at how much of our lives are affected by the flow of those same electrons...

Just for fun, a couple of pictures of portions of our facility:

The "Front End" where the hydrogen ions are produced:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1221046634.jpg

And a portion of the linac:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1221046657.jpg

They are not trying to make black holes.

There is a zoo of elementary particles that are postulated to exist (or have existed). The Standard Model of subatomic physics gives approximate energy levels for each of these. Since Einstein showed us that mass and energy are equivalent, that means that if you can produce that much energy in a small area, there would be enough "mass" for the particle to form.

We're now to the point where they're searching for particles with such high energy, that they haven't existed in any appreciable amounts in the Universe since there was that much energy...the Big Bang, and possible in the core of some super-massive supernovae.

So, we make high energy accelerators, and slowly stumble across new, higher energy particles, hoping that (a) they exist on our zoological list and (b) are at a proper energy level. They're ticking off the shopping list. If they can get everything on the list, it was found where they expected it, and nothing different shows up, then the Standard Model would be pretty well verified.

Now, this seems like it would be easy to check, right? Maybe the Higgs bozon is postulated to have (make up numbers here) a weight of 40 pounds. Calculations show that you need a 20 mile circumference accelerator to get that energy. However, we only have a 17 mile unit. Basic atomic physics says that we will never see the Higgs.

However! Quantum Mechanics now steps in. It says that the energy/mass correlation can FLUCTUATE. You can give 35 pounds of accelerator energy, and it'll steal 5 pounds from the space-time fabric, and make that 40 pound Higg's bozon with your 17 mile accelerator...SOMETIMES. The more energy it needs to steal, the less likely it is, and the faster that particle disintegrates back into 35 pounds of energy and pays back the 5 pounds borrowed.

THAT is what they're looking for. They are hoping that the Higgs appears, for ever so short of a time, every millionth or billionth or trillionth collision. They hope that the probability catches up with them because of the volume of collisions they will do.

Now, the curse of this "borrowed" energy is that in an EXCEPTIONALLY small percentage of collisions, the energy borrowed will be so large that you exceed the mass requirements for a black hole in the center of that collision. It's postulated that this happened A LOT during the Big Bang...numerous uber-tiny black holes spawning out of the energy that existed then. Some might still exist, but many/most/all don't, according to Hawkings. His Hawking Radiation says that black holes slowly bleed energy back out into the Universe. Big ones (from stars) would take millions of times the age of the Universe to bleed out, but tiny ones are small enough that they might have evaporated already (over the past 15 billion years).

Take a breath...

Am I understanding you correctly?
They want to prove all of the theories, that they have have been teaching as fact, to themselves?


KT

No, you do not understand correctly.

Actually it would probably be phenomena that coincides or reinforces their theories at best. That's why they call it a theory. Dark matter is taught as a theory not fact.

C'mon, Jim. Give us the answers.
Don't keep it to yourself.


KT

trek, you asked if you understood correctly and I responded with the answer...no, you don't understand correctly. I'm sorry if the answer displeases you. Perhaps you need to ask more in depth questions, like what is wrong with your understanding or lack thereof. :)

No KT...theories are taught as theories, not as fact.

Jim.

Why be like that?
There's just no reason for it.



KT

You'd be surprised. ( Darwin ):p



KT

If you know someone who has been teaching any of this as fact, then you do not know a scientist.

Also, no one wants to PROVE any theories. They want to examine the intricacies of the theories, to find their strong and weak spots, so as to continue supporting them, or destroy them, or modify them.

Most people have no clue how science works, because they have this very distorted view of what scientists do, what they believe, how they work, and what they're trying to do. I'm not sure where this distorted view came from, but it's most definitely there. Because of this false view of science, they are outright discounted as liars, cheats, thieves and worse by those people who don't understand what a theory is. It's been shown to exist in this very board recently.

Interestingly enough, if you were to rewrite that paragraph and replace "scientist" with "Jehovah's Witness" it would work just as well ;)

Trek, what is the basis of your maniacal aversion to learning? The LHC shouldn't impact your religious views - why do you seem to "avert your gaze" from knowledge at every opportunity?

Did you not read Mike's excellent post right before yours? And that didn't make any sense to you?

trekkor, what on Earth is wrong with you? I simply answered your question precisely and concisely. You don't have to personalize this into some weird conflict.

Also taught as theory.

And just what "answers" are you looking for. You clearly do not understand science and the scientific method. You have no tolerance for scientific uncertainty. This is why you cling to the magical world view that allows you to hide from the real world in a self-delusional inspired illusion of certainty.

It doesn't.



KT

indeed. sad but true :D

I think I follow you with this. 17 miles is not long enough for the tunnel to actively produce the Higgs bozon, so they compensate a bit, hoping it will still appear.

Is the Higgs bozon black matter?
How exactly will the scientists know it when it occurs?
How many times will the scientists run these tests before they achieve their desired results? Or, if not, will there come a time when they'll just give up and call it a day?

Mike - is that an accelerator or collider (or is an accelerator and collider the same thing)?
Does it make a noise when operating?

In this recent exchange, I was asking Jim for an explanation of his comment to me other than

Apparently, he does, and wants to keep it a secret.

I'm not interested in 'weird conflicts'. Not at all.

I find our conversation here frustrating at times.



KT

It's because we're not communicating. Communication requires talking (typing), listening (reading), and thinking/understanding.

If they went to all the trouble to build this thing, why did they make it too small.
What's a few more billion?

Or are they already planning a VLHC? ;)


KT