Diesel vs. Hybrid - another debate...

[dd74]

Found these two pieces while trolling around for Audi diesels.

http://blogs.motortrend.com/6229114/auto-review/fun-and-50-mpg-in-the-audi-a3-19tdie-who-needs-a-prius/index.html

http://www.hybridcarblog.com/2008/02/audi-a3-19tdie-who-needs-prius-asks.html

The first is MotorTrend's Angus MacKenzie's review of the A3 diesel, along w/blog responses. The second is a follow up to MacKenzie's piece, which appeared on HybridCarblog.com.

It's an interesting debate between diesel people and hybrid people as to which type of vehicle leaves the larger carbon footprint, vs. which makes better economic sense, and ultimately, remains more entertaining to drive.

Anyway, thought some you guys might find this interesting.

[BReif61]

Um, why not make diesel hybrids? Honest question.

[EdT82SC]

Originally Posted by BReif61

Um, why not make diesel hybrids? Honest question.

I know some bus companies are making diesel hybrid buses. I'm guessing it's not done with cars due to the high emissions of diesel engines. That might change with the new cleaner diesel technology.

[74-911]

IIRC during the Clinton administration the govt. poured billions in funding to "Detroit" to develop diesel hybrids (and left the japanese out). The stringent diesel emissions passed in 2001 or so by CARB effectively killed the development of the diesel hybrid as the available diesel technology could not meet the new requirements.
Then, when W was elected he declared hydrogen energy cells to be the answer and killed all remaining funding on the diesel hybrids.

Don't hold your breath waiting for your hydrogen energy cell car and a place to fill it up.

[BReif61]

It just seems to be the most logical set up. You have an engine that has a high amount of torque for the size of the vehicle (relatively speaking), so even if you smash a generator in there somewhere, the torque being siphoned off to power the generator wouldn't really be missed, IMO.

Example: lets say the engine produces 200ft/lbs. In a FWD car, that's way more than enough, so there's plenty of 'excess' to power a generator.

Or, you could just set up the diesel as a pure generator set up; with the electric power being the prime mover. I dont' know if that would be as efficient, however.

[dd74]

Originally Posted by 74-911

IIRC during the Clinton administration the govt. poured billions in funding to "Detroit" to develop diesel hybrids (and left the japanese out). The stringent diesel emissions passed in 2001 or so by CARB effectively killed the development of the diesel hybrid as the available diesel technology could not meet the new requirements.
Then, when W was elected he declared hydrogen energy cells to be the answer and killed all remaining funding on the diesel hybrids.

Don't hold your breath waiting for your hydrogen energy cell car and a place to fill it up.

Which is partly the reason for there being few if no new small diesel engines for consumer vehicles from the Big Three. I believe many of the diesel engines for American cars are produced outside the U.S.

[Jim727]

I've been chomping at the bit for a good awd manual transmission diesel car (not suv). I'd be on that in a heartbeat if it's available in awd.

[dd74]

Originally Posted by Jim727

I've been chomping at the bit for a good awd manual transmission diesel car (not suv). I'd be on that in a heartbeat if it's available in awd.

I think it is. Check out a European Audi website. They may have an AWD diesel version.

[Jim727]

They've had lots of diesels in Europe and I'm at a loss to understand why they don't come over here. The 1.9 A4 we rented for a trip to Italy averaged 55mpg. Delightful to drive - I want one.

[rouxroux]

We rented that Alfa Romeo Brera with the turbo diesel engine when we were in England in February. I LOVE that car, and I hear they might bring it to the US!

[beepbeep]

Originally Posted by dd74

Which is partly the reason for there being few if no new small diesel engines for consumer vehicles from the Big Three. I believe many of the diesel engines for American cars are produced outside the U.S.

Hmm...I had SAAB 9-3 TiD 1.9L Turbo Diesel as a company car. It's a GM car. Engine was developed together with Alfa Romeo.

It was quiet, fast and frugal! And is now available with twin turbos and 180hp on tap...from 1.9L diesel!

Particle emissions aren't problem either...it has regenerative particle trap.

[BReif61]

Originally Posted by Jim727

They've had lots of diesels in Europe and I'm at a loss to understand why they don't come over here. The 1.9 A4 we rented for a trip to Italy averaged 55mpg. Delightful to drive - I want one.

One reason that has been brought up before is that your average consumer would balk at them once they see the price of diesel fuel.

[beepbeep]

I find it somewhat weird that US diesel prices are higher than gasoline prices, considering that diesel is less fussy to destilate from crude than gasoline.

[74-911]

Originally Posted by dd74

Which is partly the reason for there being few if no new small diesel engines for consumer vehicles from the Big Three. I believe many of the diesel engines for American cars are produced outside the U.S.

Sometime during the 80's GM came out with a diesel V8 based on a gasoline V8 block which gave diesel powered US made cars a really bad name. This really bad reputation probably carried over to all diesel powered cars.

[BReif61]

Goran, diesel is taxed heavier than gasoline.

[Jim727]

Originally Posted by BReif61

One reason that has been brought up before is that your average consumer would balk at them once they see the price of diesel fuel.

True, dat. However, I tend to look at the price per mile and tco. Diesel hands-down. Diesel also can run on other fuels, such as bean oil and (maybe?) Jet-A, so John Q. Public looking only at pump diesel isn't looking at the whole picture. Diesel is also better environmentally, as has often been pointed out.

Works for me.

[BReif61]

Originally Posted by Jim727

True, dat. However, I tend to look at the price per mile and tco. Diesel hands-down. Diesel also can run on other fuels, such as bean oil and (maybe?) Jet-A, so John Q. Public looking only at pump diesel isn't looking at the whole picture. Diesel is also better environmentally, as has often been pointed out.

Works for me.

Nail on the head. Plus you're asking people to do math (math!) in their free time. Who cares if I can get 30% better milage, the fuel is 20% more expensive!!!

Plus OEMs still have to deal with "diesel = dirty" mentality that most americans have, no matter the validity of it.

[dd74]

Originally Posted by BReif61

Nail on the head. Plus you're asking people to do math (math!) in their free time. Who cares if I can get 30% better milage, the fuel is 20% more expensive!!!

Plus OEMs still have to deal with "diesel = dirty" mentality that most americans have, no matter the validity of it.

Audi embarked on a nationwide tour last year, touting the benefits of diesel. I don't know what sort of impact that tour made on American consumer.

I do know our Prius-driving friends are waiting as well for the new diesels to arrive. I think they've also done the math, and figured out a diesel might be more economical than a Prius.

Oh, I've heard fewer engine parts is another benefit of diesel.

[dd74]

Originally Posted by 74-911

Sometime during the 80's GM came out with a diesel V8 based on a gasoline V8 block which gave diesel powered US made cars a really bad name. This really bad reputation probably carried over to all diesel powered cars.

Yes, that's true. However less people (at least in my city) remember that failed endeavor than they remember the old 300 series Mercedes Benz cars that spewed smoke quite generously. As well, there's the semi-trailer trucks, public transportation buses and school buses. However, much of their pollution has been cleaned up in the last few years.

[BlueSkyJaunte]

My wife yelled at me when I told her I was considering a diesel Jetta. Said she, "They're dirty, smelly, and loud!!!"

Now I laugh at her at the pump--I get something on the order of $0.10 per mile, while she's still at $0.12 a mile in her Pontiac Clowncar^H^H^H^H^H^H^HVibe.

Still, she prefers her Pontiac.