Tough situation, aggressive dog...

[Nathans_Dad]

Guys,

I'm really upset about this. We have a dog, Lucy. She is about 1 1/2 years old now. I adopted her out of a humane society shelter in San Antonio after our Lab died. We adopted her at about 7 weeks, she had been found in a dumpster with one of her litter mates. Anyhow, long story short, she has always been a very nervous dog, very skittish. Over the last year or so she has gotten more and more aggressive towards anyone outside our immediate family. Usually when people come over she runs into her kennel and growls. If she is caught in the open her hackles go up and she acts like Cujo. She even growls and puts her hackles up if she sees anyone in the street or through the fence. She has never shown aggression towards anyone in our family, except that she growled once when we brought our latest kid home, Abby.

Things came to a head today, my son came home from school with his friend who lives next door. Usually we put Lucy in her kennel if we know kids are coming over but I didn't know my wife was bringing two kids home. She didn't bite him, but came awfully close. I have never seen her be that aggressive, my wife said that she has seen it before, though.

I'm at the point where I am considering surrendering the dog to the local animal shelter. We have 3 kids under 5 and another one on the way. There is no way I can have an aggressive dog in our house. Things are likely to just get worse when the other kids get older and their friends start coming over.

I have tried training her, walking her, exposing her to people, nothing has worked. The only thing I have not tried is one of those boarding training schools.

Any advice? It kills me to have to take her back to the animal shelter, but I would never forgive myself if she bit a child.

The other issue is I don't want to send the wrong message to my kids, I'm a little concerned that they will somehow think that we will send them away too if they misbehave...

[RWebb]

yes, two pieces of advice

1. find a dog behaviorist - surely there are several in DFW area - ask your vet

2. there are drugs and even an extract made from a flower that can calm an aggressive dog - I'd try that 2nd

Good Luck!

[masraum]

We had a similar situation. Our dog was very protective of the family and house. Our only answer was two be vigilant when other folks were coming over, but we also didn't have small kids. I feel for you. Good luck.

[M.D. Holloway]

Did you try to calm her or punish her when she acts like that? When you counsol her you are allowing acceptance of the behavior and she may interprete it as a positive re-enforcement but if you picked her up and slammed her on her back with you straddleing her all the while screamming at her she would see you as alpha and most likely pizz the floor but she wouldn't behave like that again while you were there.

Also, one trick that worked with a Shepard we had was to keep a bag of treats by the door. When someone came over they would give him a treat. After a few visits the dog was all about having people over.

[Nathans_Dad]

Yes, when she went nuts when the kid came over I grabbed her by the scruff and took her into our bedroom where I spanked her. As soon as I grabbed her she stopped and her tail went between her legs.

[nostatic]

I believe in nature and nurture. There are some dogs that are just wired certain ways, and some breeds that *tend* to have certain behaviors. There are exceptions of course, but that's my experience (and gawd knows that many books have been written on the subject).

Our Boxer was amazing with people but would get aggressive towards other dogs. It didn't matter how we tried to train her, its just the way she was. I always knew that I could trust her implicitly with my son from birth on, and she never was aggressive around anyone who came in the house (at least invited people). I'd be very nervous about having a dog that was the least bit aggressive around kids and/or strangers.

[Rikao4]

kidding ,I would be the one to say lose the kids ,keep the dog...

he's going to bite someone..it's just when and who & how bad.
Keep in mind when he does, the response he wants is stop intruding..
humans/kids will scream and wiggle..goes downhill fast.
perhaps a farmer or someone with other dogs who will put him in place.

Rika

[peppy]

Originally Posted by LubeMaster77

Did you try to calm her or punish her when she acts like that? When you counsol her you are allowing acceptance of the behavior and she may interprete it as a positive re-enforcement but if you picked her up and slammed her on her back with you straddleing her all the while screamming at her she would see you as alpha and most likely pizz the floor but she wouldn't behave like that again while you were there.

Also, one trick that worked with a Shepard we had was to keep a bag of treats by the door. When someone came over they would give him a treat. After a few visits the dog was all about having people over.

I did the knocking the dog off of his feet and not letting him up with my wife's dog. It worked for me.

[vash]

you watch all the shows on animal planet, and you wonder why everyone doesnt hire a pro.

i watched a show where this mother/daughter both had big dogs that were insane and violent. they attached leads to the wall, and leashed the dogs there. then they had guest come over. the dogs went ballistic. the second they did, everyone got up and left the room. in a few minutes they came back, dogs went ballistic again. they repeated it, until the dogs figured their tantrum didnt produce any good results....it worked.

personally, i went through the same deal. i had to get rid of my dog, once my neighbor opened up their home as a day care. my dog absolutely hated small kids. i heard stories where my dog would corner moms and kids cujo style in their cars!!!. my other neighbors would lasso my dog and lead her away. i got lucky. i have retired, vigilant neighbors that watched out for my dog. i could have been sued, bigtime.

[masraum]

I completely believe that there's a way to fix it, I just don't know what it is. It's a shame that Cesar Milan can't visit everyone's house.

[Jeff Higgins]

I have had several friends over the years who adopted these "rescue" dogs from abusive environments. Being left in a dumpster for dead has got to be about as abusive as it gets.

Short story - all of them behaved like this, and none of them ever got any better. Repeated visits to animal behaviorists, drugs, treats - all for naught in every case.

I honestly believe (although I'm no animal psychologist by a long shot) that something "snaps" in an animal when they are so misstreated. Some basic survival, defensive mechanism kicks in that would otherwise be suppressed by our love and affection. They revert to how they behave in the natural world, and like or trust no one from outside of their "pack". And they never will, no matter what you do. Friends of mine have literally spent a lifetime (the dog's) hoping they would change, and they never do. It's amazing how much of a relief it can be for all involved when the dog finally passes away, and they get a more "normal" dog.

I have nothing against "rescue" dogs. Just physically and emotionally abused dogs; abused to the point where they simply are on guard all the time. I've just seen it too many times. I know this is not what you want to hear, but get rid of Lucy. And don't bring her to the pound so some one else gets stuck with her. Put her down. The sooner the better. Then get another dog and move on.

[JavaBrewer]

I was in the same boat with our GSD a couple years back. We did everything we could, a K9 trainer, a dog trainer (owners get the training actually), dog parks, socializing, etc... One day I was throwing the ball with him out front (off leash) and he attacked and nearly killed a small dog being walked by a neighbor. The final straw was the afternoon I saw him pacing our backyard fence with his hackles up and a low growl as the neighbors kids were playing.

C-ya.

I would never forgive myself knowing my dog had aggressive traits and and he eventually hurt somebody. This was a male GSD, neutered, socialized, etc... He was very Alpha and I strongly believe you just can't train that behavior out of the dog. Sure they may tow the line when you're around but what about the other times? I get that folks love their pets but people come first.

[VincentVega]

Similar situation with my dog. I rescued him from a local group. He was great around me, but nervous around strangers and hated other dogs. I took him to obedience classes and he improved and was great around me, but something wasnt right. He eventually bit a family member that usually got along with and played with endlessly. I had to put him down, the shelter wouldnt take him because of aggression.

Really tough situation, I still think about him ~2 yrs later. Considering what he did to my sister there was no other choice. It's not easy, at all, but looking back it was the best decision.

[RPKESQ]

Dogs are the second fastest domesticated animal to revert back to "wild". How anyone who has small children in and around a dog like this puts the dog first is beyond understanding.

Loose the dog.

[Tim Hancock]

Originally Posted by jeff Higgins

i Have Had Several Friends Over The Years Who Adopted These "rescue" Dogs From Abusive Environments. Being Left In A Dumpster For Dead Has Got To Be About As Abusive As It Gets.

Short Story - All Of Them Behaved Like This, And None Of Them Ever Got Any Better. Repeated Visits To Animal Behaviorists, Drugs, Treats - All For Naught In Every Case.

I Honestly Believe (although I'm No Animal Psychologist By A Long Shot) That Something "snaps" In An Animal When They Are So Misstreated. Some Basic Survival, Defensive Mechanism Kicks In That Would Otherwise Be Suppressed By Our Love And Affection. They Revert To How They Behave In The Natural World, And Like Or Trust No One From Outside Of Their "pack". And They Never Will, No Matter What You Do. Friends Of Mine Have Literally Spent A Lifetime (the Dog's) Hoping They Would Change, And They Never Do. It's Amazing How Much Of A Relief It Can Be For All Involved When The Dog Finally Passes Away, And They Get A More "normal" Dog.

I Have Nothing Against "rescue" Dogs. Just Physically And Emotionally Abused Dogs; Abused To The Point Where They Simply Are On Guard All The Time. I've Just Seen It Too Many Times. I Know This Is Not What You Want To Hear, But Get Rid Of Lucy. And Don't Bring Her To The Pound So Some One Else Gets Stuck With Her. Put Her Down. The Sooner The Better. Then Get Another Dog And Move On.

+1

[JavaBrewer]

Rick, I forgot to mention that we also have two small kids at home. Then they were ~ 7 and 4. The dog, Ryker, loved them and played with them. I had no doubt he would die to protect them. The problem is what would happen if my son comes home with another kid and they start rough playing - as boys generally do. I was 100% certain that Ryker would "protect" my son. Sure we can enforce the dog run lockup rule with company but what about the 1% time we forget to lock the dog up.

We ended up giving the dog back to the breeder who placed him with a guy out in the country. I have no idea how that all turned out but I would wager Ryker was eventually put down.

[Nathans_Dad]

I think the decision would already be made if I thought she was truly aggressive. The thing is, I KNOW she is just scared and growling/barking is her way of trying to get the scary thing out of her house.

She seems to do ok when we go for walks, she doesn't go cujo then, just when people come into our house.

I just got off the phone with a dog trainer and he seemed confident this was a behavior he could fix but he wants to evaluate her one on one first. I'm going to go for the professional training and see what happens. If that doesn't fix the issue then I will have to take her to a shelter.

It just kills me because she is actually a very sweet dog to our family.

[the]

Me personally, I'd get rid of it, as soon as possible.

Yeah, it'll be hard for the first few days/weeks, but in a couple of months you'll be glad you did.

If you don't, you'll have months/years of dealing with this, which may very well end up in someone (a child who is not your own) getting hurt. It isn't worth it. You tried to do a nice thing, it didn't work out. Move on.

[TerryH]

Originally Posted by Nathans_Dad

Yes, when she went nuts when the kid came over I grabbed her by the scruff and took her into our bedroom where I spanked her. As soon as I grabbed her she stopped and her tail went between her legs.

"The beatings will continue until moral improves."

Difficult to unteach aggression while teaching it with aggression. Separation has worked with all our dogs. If they misbehave, they are locked away from for an hour or so. They hate their time outs and quickly unlearn bad behavior.

Probably best to find an adult home for the dog.

[Jeff Higgins]

Rick, I sincerely wish you the best of luck with this, but it sounds like you are in denial. You are attempting to separate her behaviors into catagories of "acceptable" (fear) and "unacceptable" (aggression) behavior. What you need to come to grips with is that the former drives the latter. She becomes aggressive out of fear. There is simply no way to placate that in a dog.

Every new thing, every new person will continue to scare her and bring out her aggression. You can try to keep adding to her list of "good" (recognizable, comfortable) things that won't scare her, but it will forever be an itemized list for her. Specific things will populate that list. Similar things don't count for a dog. She cannot conclude "this stranger is good, so most strangers must be good" like we can, or like a "normal" dog can. Fear and aggression have been burned into her psyche as her "default" settings. She has no capacity to ever understand her fears are not warranted. Neither you, nor anyone else, can ever reasure her and explain that to her.

I just hate to see you hang on too long. It just gets harder. With your little kids and their friends about, this is akin to having a loaded gun in the house and accessible to them. The day she bites (or worse...) one of them is the day some one's life may change dramaticaly. Lucy is just not worth that level of risk to one of those kids physical well being (or life?), or your emotional (and possibly financial) future.