Question for the lawyers on police searches.

[Rick Lee]

Assuming I'm in a non-CCW state, if I were to keep a lockable, but unlocked, briefcase on my passenger seat with my fully loaded and ready to go car-carry gun in it, and locked the case as soon as a cop lit me up, what could he do? The grabbable area in the car would include the briefcase. But if the cop can't open it, it's certainly of no threat to his safety. And isn't that the main justification of a Terry search of the grabbable area of the car? How could he possibly have probable cause to break open the briefcase? Assuming the rest of the car's interior looks clean, I don't see how he'd have much on me. A sniffer dog wouldn't smell the gun either. Anything in a locked case cannot constitute a threat to the cop. Correct? And not knowing what's in it cannot constitute probable cause. Correct?

[jorian]

You posting this from a jail cell?

[Mo_Gearhead]

Rick, (no lawyer but) I believe laws differ by states/counties/cities.

In Missouri the law (haven't read it in a while) used to be something like: perfectly legal to carry in plain sight. IE: laying on the seat, loaded ...perfectly legal.

I can strap one on the hip and walk most places legally.

However, driving/walking in a city (K.C., ST. Louis, Springfield) you would find that they (city proper) have stricter laws.

[Rot 911]

Your assumptions are correct. They would need a warrant to get into the briefcase. However, if the cop really wanted to see what was in the case, he could arrest you on some trumped up charge, impound your vehicle and then do an inventory of the vehicle and its contents INCLUDING THE CONTENTS OF THE BRIEFCASE!

[Rick Lee]

No, I'm talking about going behind enemy lines like in CA, NJ, MA, NY. I know NJ totally ignores the federal peaceable journey law anyway, so the briefcase wouldn't work there. Most states, however, are CCW or at least car-carry-friendly. I'm wondering about just making the illegal gun legally invisible and unsearchable.

[Rot 911]

See my answer above.

[LakeCleElum]

Not only do the laws vary state to state, they change within the state from time to time. What works today can all be changed by a decision in that state's Supreme Court and it's a whole new day.......Best to get a CCW for you state, know the laws regarding what you can and can't do and don't take your gun out of state!

[Rick Lee]

Thanks. I posted before I saw your post appear. Yes, the "search, incident to arrest" is another thing to worry about. But that's why I make sure there's no other grounds for arrest by having a very clean car, no outstanding warrants and generally try to not attract police attention.

When I got nailed for speeding in CA a few mos. ago, I did have a gun in the car. It was in a holster in a small compartment inside my trunk, totally inaccessible to me while driving. Can't remember if I had one in the pipe, but I definitely had a mag in it.

Anyway, how are they legally able to break into a briefcase for an inventory search? Seems to me that would defeat the purpose (as legally defined) of an inventory search, which is to make sure nothing is missing when an impounded car is returned to the owner. Leaving a locked case untampered with would seem to be the best way to ensure nothing is missing.

[jyl]

Rick, I never was a criminal lawyer, hopefully one will chime in.
My personal impression - worth less than 2 cents - is that this is not a good idea.
First, the officer may see you locking the case (or claim he did). In case law, if the officer sees the suspect acting to conceal something, that is sometimes cited to uphold the search. A suspect acting to lock a container as the officer approaches might be viewed the same way.
Second, if you are arrested, then I think locked containers can be searched incident to the arrest.
Third, if the vehicle is impounded, then I also think locked containers are subject to an inventory search

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by LakeCleElum

Not only do the laws vary state to state, they change within the state from time to time. What works today can all be changed by a decision in that state's Supreme Court and it's a whole new day.......Best to get a CCW for you state, know the laws regarding what you can and can't do and don't take your gun out of state!

Ok, I'm not being clear enough here. I have CCW's that are good in about 37 or 38 states. That's not the issue. I'm talking 4th Amendment and SCOTUS stuff here that is supposed to apply in all 50 states.

[Rot 911]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

Ok, I'm not being clear enough here. I have CCW's that are good in about 37 or 38 states. That's not the issue. I'm talking 4th Amendment and SCOTUS stuff here that is supposed to apply in all 50 states.

Rick, to preface this, I was a criminal defense attorney for 8 years and prosecuted for 6 years. While you are correct in thinking the cops should not be able to open your locked briefcase incident to arrest there are situations where the courts have upheld their right to do so. Most courts do not consider it significant whether, at the time of the search, the arrestee has access to the area searched.
Likewise, some courts do not consider it significant that a container that is searched incident to arrest happens to be locked. Nevertheless, there is a split of authority in the courts on whether locked containers may be searched incident to arrest and that issue has not been specifically addressed by the U.S. Supreme Court.

[Rick Lee]

Excellent answer, Kurt. Thanks.

Next question. How easy is it for them to arrest someone on trumped up charges without worrying about their career? Assuming I can keep a stop or detention from escalating into an arrest, how else might they be able to access a locked briefcase? Is it totally outside the scope of a Terry search? What if I'm ordered out of my car and lock the doors behind me as soon as I exit? Doesn't that reduce my grabbable area to my immediate person?

[Rot 911]

If you can keep them from arresting you, then the locked case will be outside their authority to search. Locking the doors would make no difference as they would need your permission to search your car anyway.

Your other question "How easy is it for them to arrest someone on trumped up charges without worrying about their career?" is certainly another issue. Depends on the ethics of the local prosecutor and judge.

The bottom line is if you are just stopped for a traffic violation, are polite to the cop, and are not in a known drug area or on a highway that is know as a conduit for drugs, you are probably going to be fine. If the cop you have been politely talking to asks to search your car or your briefcase just politely say no. Don't argue, don't explain. Just say no.

[Rick Lee]

Oh, I certainly know to never, ever, ever consent to a police search of my car. I was just wondering how common BS arrests are, which are done just to justify an otherwise unjustifiable search. I've been pulled over many, many times and never been asked to allow a search, even when I had a sidearm openly in my center console cupholder. I think the more you flaunt being armed, the less the cops suspect you.

[Rot 911]

BS arrests have more to do with a certain profile than anything else. Blacks are more subject than whites, angry people more than calm people, long hair drug looking types more than short hair conservatives. Middle aged, conservative whites guys are almost invisible to cops. They stop you, give you your ticket and move on. You could have a kilo of coke in your trunk and they wouldn't suspect a thing. Unless you start sweating on a cold day.

[RWebb]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

Excellent answer, Kurt. Thanks.

Next question.
[1] How easy is it for them to arrest someone on trumped up charges without worrying about their career?

[2] Assuming I can keep a stop or detention from escalating into an arrest, how else might they be able to access a locked briefcase? Is it totally outside the scope of a Terry search?

[3] What if I'm ordered out of my car and lock the doors behind me as soon as I exit?

[4] Doesn't that reduce my grabbable area to my immediate person?

1 - how rich are you? willing to spend 200k to vindicate your rights?
also does cop know that?

2 - cheat and lie

3 - that's what i'd do, but...

4- yes, but cop can order you to go sit in your car

[}{arlequin]

once they ask you ABOUT the briefcase, you already lost. it's a catch22

-tell them there's 'nothing but papers' inside, they'll ask if you mind if they have a look.
-if you say 'no' and they can't open it, it's over. they'll ask for keys.
-if you say 'yes', their suspicion will rise, ie: you just gave them probable cause
-once they have pc, you'll be outside the car while they get your keys etc etc

unless you're ultra precise about the timing of each step and verbal exchange, you're gonna be cornered w/ that briefcase.

it's best to have the gun elsewhere in the car. the briefcase, or any container, is always gonna draw their attention.

[Jim Richards]

Originally Posted by Kurt V

BS arrests have more to do with a certain profile than anything else. Blacks are more subject than whites, angry people more than calm people, long hair drug looking types more than short hair conservatives. Middle aged, conservative whites guys are almost invisible to cops. They stop you, give you your ticket and move on. You could have a kilo of coke in your trunk and they wouldn't suspect a thing. Unless you start sweating on a cold day.

RL is a magnet for police suspicion.

[DasBoot]

Here's the solution to your situation:

http://cgi.ebay.com/BioBox-fingerprint-safe-for-gun-home-car-hotel_W0QQitemZ150300862210QQcmdZViewItem?hash=ite m150300862210&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C 240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

Fingerprint operated lockbox/gun safe. No keys. Mounts under the seat of your car. While driving in an "enemy state", leave your weapon in the box and the lid open. If/when you get pulled over, push down on the top of the box with your heel to lock. Now, here's the fun part: Be sure to use your big toe print to program the fingerprint "key". When the cop asks "what's in the box/can you please open it", you can honestly say "I do not have access to that box and I don't know what's in it". You can demonstrate by trying all your fingers on the print-pad and, it will not open. You've cooperated and are probably (somewhat) off the hook if they ever decide to blow-torch open the thing.

I have an electronic/keyed version of this, which operates both with a hidden pushbutton and a cylinder key. I do not leave the key in my vehicle.

[Dueller]

Originally Posted by Jim Richards

RL is a magnet for police suspicion.

Yellow slavery trafficking suspect