Down firing or front firing subwoofer?

[Moses]

The dilemma is because I really have no choice on where to locate the sub. It will be in front, right next to the audio cabinet. No other options.

The subwoofer will be used primarily for movies. Music performance is far less important. I have a smaller room with a stereo system where I use a down firing subwoofer from Outlaw Audio. It's a big subwoofer that sits next to a couch. The performance of the big 300 watt sub is pretty impressive.

Will another Outlaw Audio down firing sub work well in the home theater application I mentioned? The floors are carpet over wood. Thanks!

[TerryH]

Originally Posted by Moses

The dilemma is because I really have no choice on where to locate the sub. It will be in front, right next to the audio cabinet. No other options.

The subwoofer will be used primarily for movies. Music performance is far less important. I have a smaller room with a stereo system where I use a down firing subwoofer from Outlaw Audio. It's a big subwoofer that sits next to a couch. The performance of the big 300 watt sub is pretty impressive.

Will another Outlaw Audio down firing sub work well in the home theater application I mentioned? The floors are carpet over wood. Thanks!

One sub should be enough for a small room. Two subs can be tricky to set up as bass cancellation can occur. A lot depends on the placement and dimensions of your room. Squarish rooms with no sound absorption are the toughest. I highly recommend an Avia DVD for setting up the sound with sound pressure level (SPL) meter from Radio Shack.

My subs are down firing, but because bass is non-directional, either can sound good. A good quality small sub can make a big sub of lesser quality sound like crap. You can have one sub volume level for music and slightly more bass for movies.

I would try to calibrate what you have already before investing in a 2nd sub .. if I'm reading your post correctly.

[Moses]

Sorry I wasn't clear, Terry. This is a different room. Primarily for watching movies. I'm only using one subwoofer, but it has to be in front of the room next to the components.

[TerryH]

Okay, most of my post still is relevant. Subs like corners for consistency and rebounding. Again, front or bottom isn't critical, but placement, even 6 inches one way or the other, can have a big effect.

For subs, I use an HSU and an SVS in my home theater. These are both well regarded and either sub by itself can vibrate my furniture during movie explosions, but are considered "musical" by audiophiles. I'm not sure how musical a sub can be, but they do sound nice and are somewhat subtle for music. I haven't shopped for speakers in 6 years, so I'm sure things have evolved.

I still would highly recommend calibration with AVIA and an SPL meter. It will help immensely with subwoofer placement. More critical in music, but there lots of DVD concerts too.

[RWebb]

front - esp. on a wood floor!

[Nathans_Dad]

Mine is front firing. It sits on the stage next to the screen. I was worried about a down firing sub because my father-in-law and I built the stage out of 2x4s and plywood. It's solid enough, but I was worried about excess rattling with a down firing one. It does the job very well.

[austin552]

Originally Posted by RWebb

front - esp. on a wood floor!

+!

[imcarthur]

Bass is omni-directional (<~80Hz) so forward or down is just packaging since that is roughly where you will set the x-over. I disagree with corner placement because that will boost the bass unevenly due to room surface coupling but you do what you have to do. Experiment. 90% of subs are overcooking in theater systems but boom & crash are what the customer wants. Set it up so the bass is fast, distinct & not overbearing.

And btw, I know you are only using one sub . . . but 2 subs are better. 2 subs with smaller drivers will move more air with more speed. By having them in different room areas, you can excite the air more evenly than a single source. A variable phase control lets you dial them in for maximum pressurization.

Ian

[Gogar]

Down is fine. Front is fine, too. The only reason I would suggest "down" first is that you won't kick a hole in the speaker after drinking too much fancy scotch and dancing too close to the TV while watching the movie "Honey", featuring Jessica Alba.

Down will be slightly less "localized", as well, but it's a very negligible difference.

I guess my only informed suggestion is that you don't place the sub exactly in the center of the L/R walls of the room, but it is beneficial to make sure it is in-between the L and the R speaker -somewhere-. So, slightly to the left or right of center in between the speakers is technically a fine choice.

The idea that you should place the sub in a corner is valid, but in truth, it's only suggested because it provides the most "bang for the buck." The closer a sub (or a regular speaker, for that matter) is placed to ANY boundary surface (a wall, ceiling, corner, etc.) the more inconsistencies there will be in the balance of frequencies, low to high.. BUT, since it has a tendency to accentuate the WOW factor of a sub (explosions, fancy low sounds) many manufacturers suggest it to give first-time sub buyers a warm fuzzy.

[Gogar]

Originally Posted by imcarthur

I disagree with corner placement because that will boost the bass unevenly due to room surface coupling but you do what you have to do. Experiment. 90% of subs are overcooking in theater systems but boom & crash are what the customer wants. Set it up so the bass is fast, distinct & not overbearing.

Wow, that was weird.

[TerryH]

Originally Posted by imcarthur

Bass is omni-directional (<~80Hz) so forward or down is just packaging since that is roughly where you will set the x-over. I disagree with corner placement because that will boost the bass unevenly due to room surface coupling but you do what you have to do. Experiment. 90% of subs are overcooking in theater systems but boom & crash are what the customer wants. Set it up so the bass is fast, distinct & not overbearing.

And btw, I know you are only using one sub . . . but 2 subs are better. 2 subs with smaller drivers will move more air with more speed. By having them in different room areas, you can excite the air more evenly than a single source. A variable phase control lets you dial them in for maximum pressurization.

Ian

Almost every single subwoofer placement article, that I've read, states to put the sub in a closed corner nearest the listening position. And I found this to be true by experimenting in my own home theater. I assumed it was common knowledge not to put a sub in the middle of a room.. aka coffee table.

Again, I have been out of the loop for current speakers, so maybe science has changed acoustical dynamics.

[Gogar]

Originally Posted by TerryH

Almost every single subwoofer placement article, that I've read, states to put the sub in a closed corner nearest the listening position. And I found this to be true by experimenting in my own home theater. I assumed it was common knowledge not to put a sub in the middle of a room.. aka coffee table.

Again, I have been out of the loop for current speakers, so maybe science has changed acoustical dynamics.

Nobody's disagreeing with what you may have read, Terry. BUT, if you have a really nice sub and don't "need" the corner, so to speak, it's a better choice not to use it.

If you do enjoy the "movie-theater melt your face" dramatic low end kind of thing, then yes, you will find it over there in the corner. The dimensions of the room, especially when the room has parallel walls in any direction, will greatly affect certain frequencies in the low end, providing some "Free HP" at certain frequencies, and deficiencies at others. They want you to put the sub in the corner because there are more possibilities (L,W,H) for a "Free HP" bump in the low end.

If you could find a "technically" optimum placement for ANY speaker, including a sub, in a room, it would be a little more than 1/3 of the way into the room, and in the air less than halfway to the ceiling. But, since that's not very reasonable for any kind of comfortable situation in any room, up against ONE wall is fine, instead of up against TWO walls.

It's all nerdy, though. If you throw the sub in the corner, and you like how it sounds, you're done! My TV-watchin' sub is in the corner; my (work) subs are not.

[TerryH]

Okay, I had to go look at the latest placement suggestions by the makers of my two subwoofers, HSU and SVS. One is a cube in the front right corner, the other looks like a 4 ft tall black water heater that sits behind the seating in the right rear corner. I would consider these makes to be better than average and a very good, affordable choice for most listeners.

I don't like boomy bass for music as has been inferred by corner placement and that is exacty why I recommended a calibration dvd to help in sub placement as well as individual speaker volume settings. The last time I checked my subs levels I was pretty steady from 20hz to 120hz with almost zero fluctuation, voids, or cancellation. I spent almost 3 hours on sub placement and settings.

Here are the recommendations from SVS and HSU for sub placement.

http://www.svsound.com/questions-faqs.cfm#wheretoput

FROM SVS "Many many theories abound regarding subwoofer placement. Deep bass is essentially omni directional, and with most setups, they are difficult to locate by ear. Yet for the lowest extension, and the greatest natural reinforcement of the bass sound pressure level (SPL) corner placement is usually best in most every shape room (and regardless of the brand of subwoofer). Wherever possible, avoid placement where the sub is adjacent to openings into other rooms such as hallways, and open doors. A closed corner, reasonably close to the prime listening position in your music room or home theater is nearly always ideal. Just be certain to recalibrate channel levels (set the playback volume) as you move your sub to different locations. Moving even a foot or two (say from a wall to a corner) can have a radical impact on how the bass sounds in your listening position. Just think of your room as another part of your speaker system."

http://www.hsuresearch.com/faq.html#1

FROM HSU..... What is the best place to put a subwoofer?
Due to certain principles of acoustics, the corner of the room is almost always the ideal location to place a subwoofer. The next best location to place a subwoofer is along a wall. Home theater aficionados may like to place the subwoofer to the side or behind the seating, near the listener, as this will provide better upper-bass impact. For the best experience, avoid placing the subwoofer or your seating in the middle of the room, because there is a bass void there.

[Schumi]

I have had two Yamaha subs, one downfiring and the other front firing. I like the downfiring one better. It sounds the same in all rooms, whereas the front fire depended larger on the room, at least this is what I concluded, doing a back to back test at the same volume level in my bedroom and living room.

[imcarthur]

Originally Posted by Moses

Will another Outlaw Audio down firing sub work well in the home theater application I mentioned?

Back to the point: Yes. It should work just fine.

On other issues:

Subwoofers are speaker boxes like any other speaker box. Any cabinet - speaker or subwoofer resonates & will couple with any room surface. Coupling is just what you think it is. It cosies up to the more massive surface(s) & this acoustically accentuates things in a nasty way – particularly evident in a floor-standing speaker as a thickness in the mid-band. The upper bass registers 80Hz- 250Hz are bumped unpredictably (because every room couples differently) & this affects the lower midrange. The more room surfaces you add to the mix (in a corner you have 3 – 2x walls + floor) the more the accentuation. That’s why speakers typically will sound best removed from any room surface. And subwoofers are no different despite their limited frequency output. When they couple, the bass loses snap & becomes muddy despite an apparent increase in output. You have more bass but not in a nice way. Put on a music disk with extended but clear bass – a Kodo drum disc or a plucked string bass (Avishai Cohen's latest) & test the box in different locations. No, don't use a boom & crash DVD unless you are an explosives expert & know what they sound like live. When you achieve sub nirvana – decent output with snap – you are done. Whether your wife can live with the placement is another matter. They will want to put a plant on it.

And if you dialed it in with an SPL meter & test tones, you might notice the extreme difference between a system set for theater & one for music. If it is balanced to reference level for theater, the bass will be greatly overblown for music. Hmmm.

As for my other statement . . . 90% of blah, blah . . .

This is a personal rant. Different peoples/cultures around the world hear (or want to hear) different things from a playback system. Americans as a general rule will buy bass & treble first. You want it to slam. You want it to sizzle. The mid-band is an also-ran to many buyers despite its extreme important in musical terms. And home theaters – tuned by an expert or by a layman – particularly reflect this imbalance. It doesn’t matter that the voices lack clarity or the music track is comparatively indistinct as long as the door slams the right way. I have heard countless demo music & theater systems that have me longing for earmuffs.

Ian

[KFC911]

I love music, and my primary speakers (old school Polks) cover the whole listenable range (down to 20hz) and I absolutely HATE subwoofers mucking up my music . Two channels + gain (in a quality system) is all I want for music (although I have a subwoofer for 5.1, which is used rarely). Music DVDs, etc. in 5.1....YUK .

[TerryH]

Originally Posted by KC911

I love music, and my primary speakers (old school Polks) cover the whole listenable range (down to 20hz) and I absolutely HATE subwoofers mucking up my music . Two channels + gain (in a quality system) is all I want for music (although I have a subwoofer for 5.1, which is used rarely). Music DVDs, etc. in 5.1....YUK .

I can remember shopping for only DVD concerts in DTS for that surround when my room was first finished. Now can only tolerate stereo which is much more realistic than all those 5.1 mixes.

My stereo listening consists of 2.2. I set my "full range" 35-21K PSB stratus towers to small and let the subs do what they do best. While your Polks may, and that's a stretch, reach 20hz, I doubt if it's audible. A true unpowered full range speaker will cost more money than a new car. A good sub won't muck stereo, but I can understand your thoughts on it. Whether it's a kettle drum or synthesized, those lows are incredible when they come through clearly, but still blend into the mix.

[Schumi]

The worst thing I have come across is seemingly not-linearity in volume reproduction when changing the mater volume of the entire system. I can get my sub set to be balanced with the rest of the 5.1 system, but if I change the master volume by any great amount it seems like I have to re-tweak it to be balanced again.

Two really nice stereo speakers can usually trump some large setup in all but a good DTS/DD5.1 recording.

[KFC911]

Originally Posted by TerryH

I can remember shopping for only DVD concerts in DTS for that surround when my room was first finished. Now can only tolerate stereo which is much more realistic than all those 5.1 mixes.

My stereo listening consists of 2.2. I set my "full range" 35-21K PSB stratus towers to small and let the subs do what they do best. While your Polks may, and that's a stretch, reach 20hz, I doubt if it's audible. A true unpowered full range speaker will cost more money than a new car.... .

I guess mind did too, back when they were new. My setup includes Polk 1.2 SDAs (back when quality ruled), the soundstage is unbelievable...170 lb towers (each) with 1K watts (bi-amped) each. They're spec'd at 20-20K hz, and I wouldn't trade 'em for anything. I remember when they were new back in the 80s, but had to wait a while before I landed some. Maybe I can't "hear" the whole audible range, but dogs seem to love it !

[TerryH]

Originally Posted by KC911

I guess mind did too, back when they were new. My setup includes Polk 1.2 SDAs (back when quality ruled), the soundstage is unbelievable...170 lb towers (each) with 1K watts (bi-amped) each. They're spec'd at 20-20K hz, and I wouldn't trade 'em for anything. I remember when they were new back in the 80s, but had to wait a while before I landed some. Maybe I can't "hear" the whole audible range, but dogs seem to love it !

Cool! What version do you have, SDA SRS? Those were close to the price of a car back then! You basically have cabinets so big, the subs are built in. Have you rebuilt them or are they original?