What is the "Green Economy," and where do I find it?

[dd74]

Anyone know where this economy is? Seriously...

[lendaddy]

Originally Posted by dd74

Anyone know where this economy is? Seriously...

That's the collection of government grants and loans for an industry that otherwise makes no sense economically.

Windmills, solar cells, biofuels, various recycling programs, etc.... It's an industry where political connections mean a lot more than ideas or results. We know it's out there but few ever actually see it.

[dd74]

Originally Posted by lendaddy

That's the collection of government grants and loans for an industry that otherwise makes no sense economically.

Windmills, solar cells, biofuels, etc.... It's an industry where political connections mean a lot more than ideas or results. We know it's out there but few ever actually see it.

Yeah. I haven't seen it, either. And I live in a big progressive city.

So WTH?

Is this like the beginnings of the computer age with Jobs, Wozniak and Gates working out of their garage?

[lendaddy]

Originally Posted by dd74

Yeah. I haven't seen it, either. And I live in a big progressive city.

So WTH?

Is this like the beginnings of the computer age with Jobs, Wozniak and Gates working out of their garage?

There is a ton of "The Green Economy" talk here in Michigan, it's a joke. There are a few connected companies here getting grant money for otherwise fruitless endeavors. It will pass in a decade when nothing comes of it.

[Tim Hancock]

Well there are two big solar cell companes in the Toledo area.... First Solar and Xunlight. Both were started with grants. First Solar is making product, Xunlight hopes to by this summer. Niether can even come close to making solar cells that are affordable to US customers, but govt and investors have funded them so far. I know employees/engineers at both places and while I wish them well, I doubt either company will do well long term.

Just south of me in Liepsic, Ohio there is a new ethanol plant that was funded by govt also. While I am happy for local neighbors who are getting good money for their corn crops, I hope they aren't stupid enough to think that ethanol has much of a chance to ever replace oil. While the farmers make a bit more now, the rest of us will pay for it at the grocery store as food becomes more expensive due to crops being wasted to make a tiny amount of ethanol.

Don't get me wrong, I welcome the idea of developing new forms of energy, but corn based ethanol and solar cells are pretty much a waste of time and tax payer money.

[idontknow]

Since I'm unemplyed I've been writing up grant requests for a backyard incinerator. The kids next door are helping build the "proof of concept". Just trying to get my fair portion of the govt cheeze to burn on my own fruitless endeavors.

[dd74]

Yep. There's even some tree hugger sites that are now staunch anti-ethanol. Hit 'em where it counts - in their granola bag - and they cry WTF?

All I'm saying is remember back in the day when we all bought our first computers. I bought a Leading Edge or some such machine. Cost me near $6K. Now I can buy an Intendo DS for a kid with more computing power for $100. The kicker is there's been about a 10-12 yr. difference between the $6K computer and the $100 Intendo.

While Obama throws out money to hope, will hope "redistribute" the cost? That's, of course, provided there's an end product.

[turbo6bar]

Originally Posted by dd74

All I'm saying is remember back in the day when we all bought our first computers. I bought a Leading Edge or some such machine. Cost me near $6K. Now I can buy an Intendo DS for a kid with more computing power for $100. The kicker is there's been about a 10-12 yr. difference between the $6K computer and the $100 Intendo.

Unfair comparison. If solar technology advanced like computers did, we'd be driving electric sports cars with no batteries and one solar panel in place of the sunroof. There are physical limitations present in alternative energy which aren't so prevalent in computing. I believe our best "hope" is better technology along with economies derived with greater scale + a heavy dose of common sense conservation.

[Robert Adams]

I don't get it.
What's the difference between subsidizing oil companies for past ions vs now doing the same for solar, wind and geo-thermal and dare I say, even atomic?

[dd74]

Originally Posted by turbo6bar

Unfair comparison. If solar technology advanced like computers did, we'd be driving electric sports cars with no batteries and one solar panel in place of the sunroof. There are physical limitations present in alternative energy which aren't so prevalent in computing. I believe our best "hope" is better technology along with economies derived with greater scale + a heavy dose of common sense conservation.

So we're stuck.

Conservation, yes, but ultimately, we're stuck.

And talk of alternative energy is a bill of goods sold to us, in part by, The O, before he's even assumed the presidential conch?

[widgeon13]

Because oil is profitable! 95% of the others ain't going to make it in 50 years of grants.

[lendaddy]

Originally Posted by Robert Adams

I don't get it.
What's the difference between subsidizing oil companies for past ions vs now doing the same for solar, wind and geo-thermal and dare I say, even atomic?

You need to understand the difference between subsidies meant to direct action (oil) and subsidies to make feasible (green energy).

Green energy is a net negative to the tax payer and oil is a HUGE net positive to the tax payer.

[RWebb]

thought we shot down those claims on the last thread

-- oh, right! it's religious fervor -- i forgot


if we were not hooked on oil, we could tell the middle east to shove off

[SlowToady]

I thought at first you were asking for tips on where to find the nearest Weed Salesman. Boy was I off...

(Sorry, nothing useful to contribute.)

[RWebb]

what if the weed is sustainably grown?

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by lendaddy

That's the collection of government grants and loans for an industry that otherwise makes no sense economically.

Windmills, solar cells, biofuels, various recycling programs, etc.... It's an industry where political connections mean a lot more than ideas or results. We know it's out there but few ever actually see it.

It is also the economy that taxes the hell out of regular forms of fuel to help pay for the above programs...

And who actually pays these taxes?

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by dd74

Yeah. I haven't seen it, either. And I live in a big progressive city.

So WTH?

Is this like the beginnings of the computer age with Jobs, Wozniak and Gates working out of their garage?

Did they need a gov't grant and a 40% tax credit for people who bought computers? No. It is not the same.

What I want to say about green will push this thread to PARF

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by Robert Adams

I don't get it.
What's the difference between subsidizing oil companies for past ions vs now doing the same for solar, wind and geo-thermal and dare I say, even atomic?

Please show how the oil companies are subsidized, in some way that is specific to them, not available to other companies.

[lendaddy]

Originally Posted by RWebb

thought we shot down those claims on the last thread

-- oh, right! it's religious fervor -- i forgot


if we were not hooked on oil, we could tell the middle east to shove off

You thought wrong (as usual).

[DavidB911]

Originally Posted by Tim Hancock

Well there are two big solar cell companes in the Toledo area.... First Solar and Xunlight. Both were started with grants. First Solar is making product, Xunlight hopes to by this summer. Niether can even come close to making solar cells that are affordable to US customers, but govt and investors have funded them so far. I know employees/engineers at both places and while I wish them well, I doubt either company will do well long term.

Just south of me in Liepsic, Ohio there is a new ethanol plant that was funded by govt also. While I am happy for local neighbors who are getting good money for their corn crops, I hope they aren't stupid enough to think that ethanol has much of a chance to ever replace oil. While the farmers make a bit more now, the rest of us will pay for it at the grocery store as food becomes more expensive due to crops being wasted to make a tiny amount of ethanol.

Don't get me wrong, I welcome the idea of developing new forms of energy, but corn based ethanol and solar cells are pretty much a waste of time and tax payer money.

Beat me to the Toledo solar companies. I know first solar are hiring many people, and it seems like they have more work than people.

There is also an ethanol plant in Lima, but it looks like the plant is stopping production after few months.

There are wind mills in Bowling Green that I guess do well too. They could probably add more wind mills across NW Ohio/SE Michigan that do well also.