.308 hands down. cheapest and best down range bang fer buck. i know ill stir up hornets nest .308 vs. .223.

but really................why in hells name is the military buying M-14's right and left none stop for both current ongoing wars?????????????????????????

range and PENETRATION! PERIOD!

example: you have pip squeek enemic tumbling .223 round.

i have 168gr boat tail hollowpoint federal .308.

we are pointing at each other, from 1200 meters. you dont lak me..........and i dont lak YOU!

you shoot at me and miss cuz pip squeek enemic whimpie .223 drops to ground becuz it ran out of energy and gravity takes over.

i shoot at you.......be it bolt or semi action...............RIGHT BETWEEN THE FREEKING EYES!

end of subject................unless of course we want to talk about PENETRATION!

example: im a tally-whacker in da hills of afghan or the dez of iwaq. its winter time and im wearing multiple layers of jackets to stay warm. you shoot me with .223 and it DOES NOT PENETRATE.

i then SHOOT YOU THRU MULTIPLE LAYERS OF TOWELS AND YOU IS MUNG PIE! ie. es ist TODT! (DEAD)!

if it aint a .308 you jes sit and MASTURBATE! 7.62 x 39 or 5.56mm same damn thang....................A ENEMIC PIPSQUEEK WHAMBIE PAMPIE ROUND!

i would much rather hunt people from 1200 meters than 600 meters ANY DAY OR NIGHT with a .308 OR BIGGER!

'cause in the 50s they were too damm 'merican to accept the Belgians offer of free license to produce the FN-FAL... :cool:

For under 200 yards, I'd go ... heck, I admit it - I went with a Savage 93fv in 22 wmr. More oomph than 22lr, rounds are under $10 for 50. Just the rifle will run 225 or so. Then put some glass on top. I have a cheapie 3-9x and it really isn't cutting the mustard for me. I think I'll spend a whopping $100 on an inexpensive 6-20x from Barska, etc. For $150, I could get a quality 3-9 (Nikon prostaff), but I need the magnification beyond 100y more than I need the super clear optics. But thats me, shooting hard drive platters and skeet clays at 200 yards...

The Tikka is a great rifle, and Savage is probably the best bang for the buck you can find. Good glass is expensive, and if you are shooting a centerfire round - even 223 - the ammo is gonna cost. Thats assuming you can *find* any 223 available at the moment, esp. in bulk.

In what context(s) do you honestly see yourselves using a gun like an AR-15 for defense?

Assuming you're actually proficient with one - and by 'proficient' I mean able to competently handle the weapon under duress - in what likely scenarios do you see yourself actually using it?

Do you take it with you to the mall? To the bank? Liquor store?

If you don't like the current political regime, do you drive down to your local City Hall, Capitol building, etc and just start taking people out?

Do you reach for your AR-15 if you hear a noise in the middle of the night?

I'm not trying to say you can't have them - I'm just curious what the legitimate uses are, particularly since "defense" is usually cited as the need for having auto/semi-auto weapons for personal use.

widebody911 - didja see the looting, rioting, etc. after Katrina, in LA after the Rodney King verdict, etc? For the bump in the night, a pistol (revolver or semi auto) works fine, as does a shotgun. For the mad drunk going thru my fence in the wee hours, again, a pistol works fine. If you live in a populated area and there is a group rioting/looting/etc. and headed your way... a pistol just ain't gonna cut it if shots have to get fired. The simple presence of a gun will stop 90% of it... but for that 10%, you need to have a serious presence... and a semi auto rifle is about the only thing that will do it.

Chuck .308 appears to be quite a bit more pricey than the .223 i've seen at cheaperthandirt, ableammo, etc. Am i looking in the wrong places?

I recently won a Savage black powder bolt action rifle (with scope) and my plan is to swap it for something i might actually enjoy shooting. i have a Wilson KZ45 and assorted shotguns for home defense and would LIKE a Bushmaster or similar but it really is not at all practical for home defense (not interested in killing folks in the next house!). Anyways the Savage is just ugly as sin (black stock, ss bbl) and balanced like a fat lady on a unicycle so i'd like something different.

Don't have the time or interest to go deer hunting but wouldn't turn down an invite to go boar hunting one day. Had a Marlin 336 in .35 Remington but the ammo is just too darned pricey to plink with. Seems like .223 can be had for way less than $1/rnd....

Why do you own them/not own them. Collectors? Home defense? Target shooting? Fear of an uprising?
I have a military background and military weapons are by enlarge the most fun to shoot even if it's only at paper targets.

I've been getting 200 rounds of Privi 7.62x51 ball ammo from Wideners for a hair over 100 delivered...

You guys always make me want to spend more money........

Best price I've gotten on 7.62x39 is $200 for 1,000 rounds. I'm gonna' order up another 1,000 soon.

Still looking for good deals on 8mm to feed my newest beast (Steyr M95) too... A mix of heavy ball & soft point is always nice.

Why do you own a car with only 2 doors?

Why do you own a car that goes over 65 mph?

why do you own a car that it's tires are wider than 185 series?

Ok, so we have "in case of a riot" - I can kinda almost see that, but the stars will have to line up just right in order for you to get to plink any human targets.

Any other defensive scenarios?

I had to shoot a car jacker however it was done with a service pistol.


Are you trying to figure out why an "assault" weapon would be better than say your grandfater's Remmington 30-06 in a defensive situation?

After serving in the military, I find that these type of rifles have a value in the field and a very versatile. While they are good for hunting and for punching paper, they also tend to lend themselves for the more glorious purpose of defending our homeland. From both enemies foreign and domestic. I took my oath of honor seriously, and for me gun ownership is the most patriotic duty that an American can do next to voting. Anyone... from any party... that would want to infringe on your rights to do so are not Americans.. they are not your friends... and sir when it gets down to it, they are the enemy that is chipping away at our society... While I might not be the most articulate among us, I can surely see that the ever dissapearing rights that we loose annually continue to add up.... When will it be enough? When we actually allow them to take us away on cattle trailers? While they tell us we are going to a better place? A better place has existed... just ask your father and grandfathers.... No matter who we elect, at the very least it should be someone who allows us to be who we are and allows us to remain a free people... The founding fathers seemed to believe in this idea, I am shaken at how many people today are able to read into the fouding fathers words and interperety what is not there, and to dismiss the freedoms granted as only something that should of existed at that time..... Well, I have been quite for a while, but had to come out on this issue.... I care less about my life, than my country's ability to exist in a traditional sense.

I guess I am. I've fired the EBRs, and yes, there is a giggle factor involved, but they belonged to someone else...I could see no reason to buy one myself. If I had the angry hoards coming up the street to steal my house from me one brick at a time, I'd be just as comfortable plinking them off with a nice 22LR and maybe a 9mm for those that got too close over a Bushmaster or something. I wouldn't expect to start shooting people until they hit my fence line, and at that point, the range of the .223 seems like a moot argument.

I'm more likely to shoot my neighbors in the back, and loudly announce that THEIR house has lots of stuff, and is now completely unprotected, as opposed to MINE with is protected by the kind of maniac who would shoot their own neighbor in the back :D

That's usually a sound plan, Mike. Show the thugs you really are farking crazy, and armed, and they usually move on. ROI and all of that...

i picked up one of these during a lunch this week....

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1226539049.jpg

kel-tec Sub 2000,....9mm. i paid $260 for it, brand new. uses glock mags (regular and high capacity).

just to see how it would work, i put 300 rounds of Blazer steel case (super cheap ammo) through it. not a single misfire, or anything.

at 25 yards, i was getting a 2 inch group right out of the box.


I also have the Hi Point 9mm Carbine, which for around $170, brand-new is another "cheap" gun that fires great out of the box. no issues with 2000 rounds through the Hi Point.

Let me know if you ever think of moving to my neighborhood. :)

at 25 yards, i was getting a 2 inch group right out of the box.


I spit 2 inch groups at 25yds:D

Scary stuff in this thread.

Not many Buddhists in this crowd.







Right. I said my piece, as you guys knew I would. Over & out. :D

i'm a vegetarian, but occasionally i'll put bacon on my veggie burger....

I'm a vegetarian (medical reasons) but I own a Colt AR15, Beretta 92FS, Sig P239, Browning ABolt in .243 WSSM, Remington 1187 and a .22 rifle. We shoot these at the local range, hunt with them and carry them for self-defense. We live near Detroit, enough said?

Oh, I'm also starting to reload my own ammo...

There have been armed Buddhists, and even Ghandi (not Buddist, but very peaceful) was all for an armed civilian population.

Embraer, where'd you get the Kel-tec at? I might have to pick one up myself?

And how do you like the new terminal? Apparently the opening has been rough on the contractors. A friend of mine was named overall project manager at the airport after the previous project manager went 60 hours without sleep and essentially fried her brain. I'll have some stories as soon as it calms down over there.

I like the Kel-Tec; I have the blued one that takes the Glock magazines like yours. but want to get one with the hard chrome finish. That finish seems more practical for a "stowable" carbine like the Sub-2000. (I really wish Kel-Tec would make it in stainless steel.)

Regarding the ammo. You mention "Blazer steel case" -- are you referring to CCI Blazer?

I wasn't aware that they make any with steel cases. Blazer makes aluminum-cased ammo, and in the past few years have started making brass-cased too.

If I remember correctly, I believe Kel-Tec says to not use aluminum cased ammo (like Blazer) in the Sub-2000.

You may want to check your owner's manual.

Edit: I just checked the manual Kel-Tec has online:
http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/downloads.htm
I don't see any warning about aluminum cased ammo. I'll have to see if I can dig up my manual; I'm pretty sure they warned about it before in the manual, but they may have changed their position on that.

Edit #2: Yes, I was right. On this page http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/news.htm Kel-Tec says:

CAUTION! DO NOT USE ALUMINUM CASED AMMUNITION WITH THE SUB-2000 RIFLE.
Doing so could result in malfunctions.

If yours is working fine with Blazer aluminum cased ammo, then I guess you're OK. They don't seem to be saying there is any safety issue using it.

Competentone....

I used Wolf steel case...not blazer. I mispoke. Both the Keltec and HiPoint can't use Aluminum case, per the manual. I was thinking about Blazer, because I, ironically, was just talking to my buddy about NOT using it in his KP-44.

Legion...

The new terminal has been a snafu for passengers. I hate the increased traffic on I-70 now south of the field. It's neat, and long overdue, but the initial week has been hard on everybody. Luckily we didn't have to take delays on crews getting lost!

Picked up the Keltec at Bradis Guns in Mooresville. They wanted $300 for the Keltec, but I bought a lot of other stuff that day, so the price was haggled.