AR-15 vs AK variant

[HardDrive]

Ok, I know this opens up an absurdly large can of worms, but hear me out.

I already own an 'assault rifle', a MAK90. Since everyone has been going batty about ammo prices, I did an inventory, and I have about 1000 rounds for it. So I guess I have my zombie rifle ready.

The only problem with this is that frankly, a MAK90 is a piece of junk. Will it continue to fire after 10,000 round with no cleaning and yak butter as its only lubricant? Sure. Its an AK. But it ain't the most accurate gun in the world, and there is no way to put optics on it without drilling some kind of custom rig into the rather flimsy stamped receiver.

So the current gun buying madness has got me thinking about buying something better. Now this would seem to naturally lead to an AR variant of some kind. But I have been looking in various forums, and AR owner seem to b!tch about broken parts more than Ducati owners. Yikes.

Am I getting an inaccurate picture? I had my heart set on a Sig 556 (Basically a snobs AK), but they are very expensive, and there are some nice looking AR setups in the $1000 range. At Sig 556 prices, you can get an AR with a floating barrel and a REALLY nicely machine front end.

Set me straight. Are ARs a maintenance nightmare? Or are the guys complaining about this stuff the guys that put 5000 rounds a month through their rifle? For the record, I would probably shoot less than 1000 round a year through the gun.

[Rick Lee]

Technically, your MAK would not be covered by the old AWB, as yours is not considered to have a pistol grip. I'm shopping for a Romy WSAR AK or some variant thereof. When I find the right one for under $400 locally, I'm taking it home.

Since you're concerned about increasing scarcity, you should concentrate on the things that are getting scarce and/or more expensive. You can buy stripped AR lower receivers for $100 all day long. AR15dotcom has all kinds of specials on bulk magazine buys for super prices. And ammunitiontogodotcom has the best prices on .223 anywhere. Everything else you can worry about when you get around to it. I'm at around 4k rounds of .223 and I'm torn between buying an AK variant now or just a lower receiver because there's no point in doing either if I'm not also gonna stock up on 7.62x39mm ammo, which is a hair cheaper than .223.

[azasadny]

I shot my AR15 yesterday and my BIL fired his AR10 and my buddy fired his AR15 at an outdoor range near Findlay, OH yesterday. The AR10 (.308) is louder and has quite a bit more recoil than the AR15. I really like to shoot the AR15, it's pleasant to shoot, very accurate and EASY to strip down and clean! Whoever told you these weapons are tough to clean/maintain is nuts! I'm just starting to reload my own ammo because of the high cost of ammo (.50 a round) and that will be my new winter hobby. .223 is a proven cartridge and the AR15 is an excellent weapon and easy to maintain. I recommend that you shoot one 1st and see if you like it.

[competentone]

Originally Posted by HardDrive

So I guess I have my zombie rifle ready.

If your main concern is with zombies, don't worry about the lack of "accuracy" with the AK variant. It has what you need.

ARs are also battlefield proven -- just like the AKs.

I'm not sure what sort specific complaints you are reading regarding ARs, but wouldn't be surprised if a significant portion of the problems were related to people taking them apart to a level significantly farther than the dis-assembly the manufacturer recommends.

I don't know a whole lot about the Sig 556, but know I want one (and had better make up my mind if I'm going to spend the money on one soon, as it looks like a new "assault weapons" ban will be enacted).

[MT930]

A quality AR is a easy gun to care for,I have had couple over the last 15 years no problems what so ever (Colts), 2500 rounds a year varmint hunting. I am looking for a AR-10 in .308. I know I will need to spend some $ for a good one.

If you reload, once you get your sizing dies dialed in, you are good to go with out adjustments. I am an old school shooter I have been loading .223 & .308 before I had auto-loading rifles. I have no experience with 7.62X39 or the AK's I have not been impressed at the range with the accuracy of the rifles being fired next to me if I scope their targets. The guns are reliable but they look like they are made out of hammered out beer cans. They are inexpensive and you can buy loaded surplus ammo at the gun shows fairly cheap if you don't reload. I still love my bolt rifles in .223 & .308. The Sig 556 looks intresting I have never seen one but I have been impressed with anything they make. With auto-loading rifles, I think you are going to get what you pay for.

[MysticLlama]

We were out looking at stuff this weekend too, gf wants to get a little something or other and possibly a CCW, so we were just looking at options.

I've also been thinking about an AR/AK/Something or other for quite a while now, so I was taking a look at those.

Any opinions on the DPMS?

I was doing some reading and it seems that it'd be better to get one that is ready for 5.56 since it could still shoot .223, but it's unsafe to go the other way. What's the story on that?

Also, the guy at the store said that the ban last time pretty much affected the lower receiver, so if that's the worry, grab a couple of those, is that right, and do they work both with the 5.56 and the .223? It's the upper that has to be set up fo rthe higher pressure of the 5.56, right?

Didn't mean to hijack, tried to keep it all on topic.

[Rick Lee]

I never knew there was difference between .223 and 5.56. It's just SAE vs. metric.

DPMS is good stuff and very well priced. Lower receivers grow on trees for about $100 each. Just about every week someone on our local gun board in AZ has a huge batch of them come in and they are snatched up in hours.

[MysticLlama]

Well, we all know how this is as a source, but it's a good summary, I've found comments to this effect elsewhere too...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56

[edit] 5.56mm NATO versus .223 Remington
While the 5.56mm and .223 cartridges are very similar, they are not identical. Military cases are generally made from thicker brass than commercial cases; this reduces the powder capacity (an important consideration for handloaders[1]), and the NATO specification allows a higher chamber pressure. Test barrels made for 5.56mm NATO measure chamber pressure at the case mouth, as opposed to the SAAMI location. This difference accounts for upwards of 20,000 psi (140 MPa) difference in pressure measurements. That means that advertised pressure of 58,000 psi (400 MPa) for 5.56mm NATO, is around 78,000 psi (540 MPa) tested in .223 Rem test barrels. The 5.56mm chambering, known as a NATO or mil-spec chambers, have a longer leade, which is the distance between the mouth of the cartridge and the point at which the rifling engages the bullet. The .223 chambering, known as SAAMI chamber, is allowed to have a shorter leade, and is only required to be proof tested to the lower SAAMI chamber pressure. To address these issues, various proprietary chambers exist, such as the Wylde chamber (Rock River Arms)[2] or the Armalite chamber, which are designed to handle both 5.56mm and .223 equally well.

Using commercial .223 cartridges in a 5.56-chambered rifle should work reliably, but generally will not be as accurate as when fired from a .223-chambered gun due to the longer leade.[3] Using 5.56 mil-spec cartridges (such as the M855) in a .223-chambered rifle can lead to excessive wear and stress on the rifle and even be unsafe, and the SAAMI recommends against the practice.[4] Some commercial rifles marked as ".223 Remington" are in fact suited for 5.56mm, such as many commercial AR-15 variants and the Ruger Mini-14, but the manufacturer should always be consulted to verify that this is acceptable before attempting it, and signs of excessive pressure (such as flattening or gas staining of the primers) should be looked for in the initial testing with 5.56mm ammunition.[5]

Then from DPMS's site:

All DPMS rifles chambered in .223 Remington (stamped on the base of the barrel) are designed for use with .223 ammunition only. Failure to use .223 ammunition may cause unsafe conditions and damage your rifle.

and

All DPMS rifles chambered in 5.56x45mm (stamped on base of barrel) are able to use both 5.56x45mm and .223 Remington ammunition.

Kinda answered my own question, been poking around here and there all morning reading stuff.

[legion]

I bought a Bushmaster AR-15 for this very reason. It is chambered for 5.56mm.

[azasadny]

My Colt Sporter AR15 will shoot 5.56mm and .223 I took the gun down and cleaned it yesterday and it is easy to clean and it shoots well. I'm going to start reloading my own ammo as soon as I buy a few more things (digital scale, powder loader). I have 500 rounds of brass to reload and my plan is to reload all winter so I can shoot next spring/summer and keep the costs down to a reasonable level. I'm going to reload .45 ACP, .223, and .308

[alf]

Hard Drive, you know you want an AR. Go to Puyallup and get yourself a Bushmaster or Colt. (I prefer the former) and call it a day. Do not get the cheapest brand you could find, they are cheap.

Stick the MAK and the ammo in a pipe and bury it somewhere for when SHTF or sell it at Puyallup.

[MysticLlama]

Originally Posted by alf

Hard Drive, you know you want an AR. Go to Puyallup and get yourself a Bushmaster or Colt. (I prefer the former) and call it a day. Do not get the cheapest brand you could find, they are cheap.

Stick the MAK and the ammo in a pipe and bury it somewhere for when SHTF or sell it at Puyallup.

Somewhere in particular in Puyallup that you are referencing, or are there little gun stands near the fairgrounds that I never noticed before?

[pwd72s]

Subject: Gun Ban pulled from his website



b) DEFINITION OF SEMIAUTOMATIC ASSAULT WEAPON- Section 921(a) of title 18, United States Code, is amended by adding after paragraph (29) the following:
‘(30) The term ‘semiautomatic assault weapon’ means--
‘(A) any of the firearms, or copies or duplicates of the firearms in any caliber, known as--
‘(i) Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies Avtomat Kalashnikovs (all models);
‘(ii) Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil;
‘(iii) Beretta Ar70 (SC-70);
‘(iv) Colt AR-15;
‘(v) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR, and FNC;
‘(vi) SWD M-10, M-11, M-11/9, and M-12;
‘(vii) Steyr AUG;
‘(viii) INTRATEC TEC-9, TEC-DC9 and TEC-22; and
‘(ix) revolving cylinder shotguns, such as (or similar to) the Street Sweeper and Striker 12;
‘(B) a semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of--
‘(i) a folding or telescoping stock;
‘(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;
‘(iii) a bayonet mount;
‘(iv) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; and
‘(v) a grenade launcher;
‘(C) a semiautomatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of--
‘(i) an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip;
‘(ii) a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer;
‘(iii) a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the nontrigger hand without being burned;
‘(iv) a manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded; and
‘(v) a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm; and
‘(D) a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least 2 of--
‘(i) a folding or telescoping stock;
‘(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;
‘(iii) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds; and
‘(iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine.’.

this was introduced and sponsored by four Republicans

[legion]

Paul, are you referring to the old assault-weapons ban or something new?

[MysticLlama]

I just saw a reference to that the other day too, can't remember where and can't find it now either.

But the general gist was that there were 4 representatives sponsoring an update that would basically renew the old AWB, but make the distinguishing factors only require one of the list vs. two. The update was as of 11/5/08, so it's being talked about currently.

[pwd72s]

Not sure...just got this in an email...but Obama has pledged to bring back everything Clinton did...

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by MysticLlama

I just saw a reference to that the other day too, can't remember where and can't find it now either.

But the general gist was that there were 4 representatives sponsoring an update that would basically renew the old AWB, but make the distinguishing factors only require one of the list vs. two. The update was as of 11/5/08, so it's being talked about currently.

And there's probably not much chance of the GOP sustaining a filibuster in the Senate on this one. Have you noticed that Magpul Pmags are backordered for months now?

[MysticLlama]

http://www.opencongress.org/bill/110-h6257/text

6/12/2008--Introduced.
Assault Weapons Ban Reauthorization Act of 2008 - Amends the federal criminal code to reinstate, for 10 years, the Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act

[pwd72s]

Rick, FWIW...there was a bit in a recent AMERICAN RIFLEMAN on the .223/5.56 thing. I've fired both in my mini 14 with zero problems, but after reading the article, think I'll stick with rounds labeled .223 now. The gist of the article was to only use ammo calibers stamped on the rifle.

[JTO]

In the last few months I have purchase two new DPMS rifles. The first was the AP4 LR308 and the second was a custom assembled 16" AR with flat top receiver and collapsible stock. Both are sweet shooters and neither has been less than 100% reliable. I am fully set up to load both progressively on the old 550B. DPMS makes a great weapon. Coupled with an EOTECH on the 5.56 and a Leupold 3-9 on the LR308, if you can see it, you can hit it.

Troy