Originally Posted by SLO-BOB (Post 4409477)

But I do know he killed a handcuffed kid.

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins (Post 4407355)

Too bad the videos are already out. It would have been interesting to see what the cops would have said in their official report had they been unaware of the videos. I'm sure it would have been presented as a life and death struggle with an armed lunatic, that they were all lucky to survive. Conflicting statements from the other "armed and dangerous" suspects would be summarily brushed aside.

Originally Posted by ikarcuaso (Post 4409639)

But it is clear in this case - he NEVER should have reached for his gun.

Originally Posted by competentone (Post 4409399)

I'd love to see how some of the people who are being so critical of the police officer in this incident, behaved if they were undergoing firearms training on a FATS-type system.

Even though they'd know they were on a simulator, I'd be willing to bet that ALL of them would end up shooting an innocent person in more than one scenario (most of the scenarios are reenactments of real situations).

It is so easy to "Monday morning quarterback" such a situation; it's a hell of a lot different when you're the one in the thick of the situation when it's unfolding.

Originally Posted by competentone (Post 4409472)

But how can you concluded that this one incident proves the officer was "incompetent"?

Are you saying that competent people never make any mistakes?

If this was an unintentional discharge of the weapon, do we really know all the circumstances leading up to the incident? For example, how long had the officer been working? Was he required to work a double shift on New Year's Eve? Was he at the end of 16 hours on the job?

My comments are not meant to "defend" the officer -- my first reaction when I looked at the video was: "Damn, that looks like a bad shooting."

My posts are to the reaction of some here who seem to be willing to completely ignore some of the serious questions that need to be asked about this incident, and seem more than ready to form a lynch mob and string the officer up on the nearest tree.

Some seem to be asking, "Why hasn't this officer been executed yet?" Or seem ready to viciously attack anyone who suggests that this could be anything less than "premeditated murder."

It is amazing the way some can't even keep the facts straight from the video. One suspect is handcuffed; the shooting occurs as the police move to the second suspect and are attempting to handcuff him. This second suspect is the one who is shot. I do not see any clear indication that the decedent is handcuffed when he is shot, but I do see that one of his hands are free after being shot. This indicates to me that he was not handcuffed when he was shot, yet some commenting here apparently cannot differentiate between the first person who is clearly handcuffed -- and is not shot -- and the second person who is struggling (and from what I can see, has one hand cuffed) and is shot.

The responses from some here is the reason why we don't want "mob justice."

There will be a complete investigation of this shooting; I'll have more confidence in the conclusions of the investigators than either the conclusions some have drawn here, or my own initial reactions to the videos.

Originally Posted by competentone (Post 4409482)

And who made the complaints and what was the final conclusion after any investigation of those complaints?

Two complaints for two years (if that is the amount of time the officer was employed) is a pretty clean record.

The low-lifes that officers have to deal with on a daily basis can be pretty quick to file complaints, but such complaints are usually frivolous and nothing more than a lame attempt by the low-lifes to get back at the officers when the officers had done nothing wrong.

Originally Posted by Christien (Post 4409856)

This I have no idea about. It would seem to me that one complaint per year on average is high, though I do understand and appreciate low-lifes making frivolous complaints. I would think, however, that there would be some kind of filtration device in place, whereby the complaint is reviewed and, if found frivolous or baseless, it's tossed out and never becomes part of an officer's record. I should *hope* that's the way it's done.

Originally Posted by competentone (Post 4409487)

You really need to look at the videos more carefully.

Damn. You're right. My lynch mob mind thought they got the cuffs on him. Now I see why the killer cop, and probably the other three cops on top of the face down "kid" , were nervous. Hell, I would have shot him too! Thanks for clearing that up.

(But I doubt your lynch-mob mind really wants to understand what happened....)

Yes. Please stop trying to enlighten me with your scholarly observations on the killing of an unarmed kid. STOP........can't....take...it...too much intellect.....and self.....righteous.....indignation.....ugh...

Edit: And since when did we start describing 22-year-olds, who are out (drinking? and fighting?) late into the night, as "kids"?

Since I had one about 22 years ago.

Your choice of the word "kid" tells me you want to put your particular slant on this rather than seriously try to understand exactly what happened.

Originally Posted by Moses (Post 4410000)

From Wikipedia:

KPIX-TV reported Grant had a criminal record and served time at state prison in 2007 and 2008 and was involved in twelve cases between April 2004 and May 2008.[9] Grant, who had also been convicted of drug dealing, had been sentenced to 16 months in state prison in 2007 after he fled from a traffic stop while armed with a loaded pistol.[6] Grant was most recently released from prison September 23, corrections officials said. A lawyer representing his family said that Grant had being doing well in recent months and that his record was irrelevant to the BART shooting because the cop was not aware of it when he opened fire.[6]

Again, not an explanation in itself.

Originally Posted by SLO-BOB (Post 4409974)

Since I had one about 22 years ago.

Originally Posted by competentone (Post 4408937)

I looked at the video frame by frame -- it looks like the officers got the hand cuffs on one hand, but the guy is still fighting and one hand is still free. I'll admit that the videos I have looked are poor, so I will stand corrected if I'm wrong.

Originally Posted by competentone (Post 4408937)

I do find it disturbing the way people will sit behind their keyboards and be critical of officers in an extremely stressful situation. It is obvious some of you have never been on the streets in potentially dangerous situations.

Originally Posted by 125shifter (Post 4408983)

There was a similar incident in Houston last week. Fortunately the victim lived, unfortunately his future baseball career is probably over.

It appears the cop figured a black kid in a rich neighborhood must be up to no good and probably driving a stolen car. I guess the cop never figured he could be the son of a retired professional baseball player :o

His mother and father witnessed the shooting in their driveway.

http://cbs13.com/national/Robert.Tolan.shot.2.902245.html

Originally Posted by competentone (Post 4410072)

And since when did we start describing 22-year-olds, who are out (drinking? and fighting?) late into the night, as "kids"?


So you are telling us you have a "loser" for a son?

Originally Posted by competentone (Post 4410058)

Stop trying to cloud this issue with any "irrelevant" facts that might reflect on the character of Grant.

Haven't you read the thread?

It has already been concluded that Grant was just a 22-year-old "innocent kid" (I think he may have been on his way home for choir practice) who was brutally attacked by a gang of murdering-thug police officers. The officers "handcuffed him" then shot him execution-style in the back after planning the whole event hours before -- or at least that's what some here would appear to believe they can "see" from the grainy videos showing some angles of this incident.

I'll hold off on any final conclusions about what happened until a lot more careful investigation has been done, but I won't hold off on judging some of those here who have been exceedingly quick and vicious with their attacks against the police officers involved in this incident/shooting.

Originally Posted by m21sniper (Post 4410080)

Poor videos? The victim is CLEARLY laying face down, cuffed, and most importantly NOT resisting in any way. There is absolutely ZERO justification for ANY type of force to be applied at that time. None whatsoever. Nada. Zilch.

Originally Posted by Christien (Post 4410089)

Guys, let's keep the personal stuff out of this discussion. Competent, that comment was out of line, IMO.
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