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m21sniper 01-10-2009 07:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nine17 (Post 4409020)
Or handled firearms... Or practiced law... I too looked at the available videos frame-by-frame. It looks like a case of negligent handling of a handgun in a highly-charged and stressful situation. He doesn't aim the gun at the man on the ground. It's pointing right at him as it is drawn from the officer's holster and already had a cartridge in the chamber because guns had already been drawn and holstered earlier. All it takes is an errant finger. I've seen situations where handguns were discharged into the leg of the person drawing the gun, with similarly fatal results. Under California law this is at most misdemeanor Involuntary Manslaughter. It is only because of the politically-charged situation that this isn't being treated simply as a tragic accident. I can't tell if the officer decided to draw his firearm because the decedent appeared to constitute a threat or whether he saw a threat from the crowd. I now doubt that he'll ever tell us why he drew his firearm because he is faced with a witch-hunt environment. Instead he gave up his career and his pension to avoid making statements which could be turned against him in a politically-motivated prosecution.

The people to blame are EVERY belligerent drunk on that BART platform. If they were behaving themselves, none of these tragic events would have unfolded.
OMFG.

Now i've heard everything.

PS: To Competent one: in the video you can clearly see both the victims hands behind his back and they do not move from that postion even after he was shot. Even AFTER he is shot his arms stay behind his back.

See, i have some street and "tactical" experience. Pay some god-damned attention 'n00b'.

Check out the second by second play by play breakdown in this video. About 2:30-2:40 is the part in question. The guys hands are clearly restrained. He continues on at length and again there is a play by play slow mo at about 3:30ish that also shows the same thing, the man is handcuffed. Of course some of us don't need slow mo to notice that the guys hands STAY in the interlaced handcuffed position even as, and after, being shot.

Because he was handcuffed.

And he was NOT resisting, he was laying face down and had put both his hands behind his back without resistance (or perhaps more accurately: with minimal resistance) as the officer moved them into place. If he had been struggling the cops would have all had to fight to get the cuffs on. Which is clearly not the case. Again, watch the video, it's all in there. Clearly.

http://leathermenace.multiply.com/video/item/252/Proof_Oscar_Grant_Was_HandCuffed_and_THEN_SHOT_by_ Bart_Police_officer?replies_read=11

competentone 01-10-2009 07:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christien (Post 4410089)
Guys, let's keep the personal stuff out of this discussion. Competent, that comment was out of line, IMO. Just because my good buddy Nine17 started the personal stuff doesn't mean we all should follow suit.
My "comment" was a question -- which "SLO-BOB" has chosen not to answer.

It was an "inflammatory" question -- but you'd have to admit, he kind-of "walked right into it" with his comment.

One would hope he wouldn't be defending his son if his son was out drinking and fighting at all hours of the night, as it appears Grant was doing.

Additionally, the viciousness of the attacks against the officers involved in this shooting are completely unjustified -- at least at this point in time. There are "bad cops," but a hell of a lot more good ones.

To listen to the audio in one video and to hear the crowd cursing out the officers well before the shooting, tells me what sort of scum was out that night. Then to read the comments here by some who seem to have concluded the officers were the ones somehow making the trouble -- I just can't conclude that by what I see and hear in the videos.

Christien 01-10-2009 08:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by competentone (Post 4410122)
My "comment" was a question -- which "SLO-BOB" has chosen not to answer.

It was an "inflammatory" question -- but you'd have to admit, he kind-of "walked right into it" with his comment.
No, I disagree. You asked at what point "we" collectively started calling 22 year olds "kids" and he said when his kid was born, 22 years ago. That doesn't at all imply that his son is at all like the victim in this case. He's stating, somewhat tongue in cheek perhaps, that as we get older we refer to those younger than us as "kids", and also perhaps that we as a society treat our young adults more like kids, for many reasons, many of which probably played into this shooting. (Sorry Bob if I'm putting words in your mouth.)

To imply his son is a "loser" because he refers to him as kid is a low blow.

SLO-BOB 01-10-2009 08:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by competentone (Post 4410122)
My "comment" was a question -- which "SLO-BOB" has chosen not to answer.

It was an "inflammatory" question -- but you'd have to admit, he kind-of "walked right into it" with his comment. .
Get your facts straight - I did answer your question. And you certainly have answered mine.

competentone 01-10-2009 08:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by m21sniper (Post 4410096)
See, i have some street and "tactical" experience. Pay some god-damned attention 'n00b'.
Based upon your comments on this and other threads, I'd say your only "experience" is in your dreams -- unless you are considering video games you may have played as the source for your "'tactical' experience."

Jeff Higgins 01-10-2009 08:07 PM
Watch that video again. At 4:36-4:37, you can clearly see Oscar Grant's right arm flop out freely onto the ground as the officers roll him over. He was not cuffed. Not that whether he was cuffed or not makes any difference (it is clear he was not struggling), but if folks are going to try to make this look even worse than it already is, you are going to have to come up with something else. He was not cuffed.

SLO-BOB 01-10-2009 08:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christien (Post 4410137)
(Sorry Bob if I'm putting words in your mouth.)
You're fine. ;)

competentone 01-10-2009 08:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SLO-BOB (Post 4410139)
Get your facts straight - I did answer your question.
I stand corrected.

Christien 01-10-2009 08:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by competentone (Post 4410141)
Based upon your comments on this and other threads, I'd say your only "experience" is in your dreams -- unless you are considering video games you may have played as the source for your "'tactical' experience."
Alright, competent. Since you're calling into question everyone's ability to play expert, why don't you bless us with the same courtesy? What makes you the "competent one"?

I'm hoping you'll say you're a cop, or some form of LEO, to lend some authority to your statements. But somehow I don't see that.

m21sniper 01-10-2009 08:12 PM
The cops shot an unarmed and handcuffed American in the back right in front of them- on film even. Therefore, i would say the crowd's hostility was 100% justified.

If you wonder why they were hostile BEFORE the shooting, paint yourself black and move into the ghetto for a while. I guarantee it won't be long before you have a much different view of your "friendly" neighborhood police men.

They were jeering those cops because cops harass the living shiit out of poor people in ghetto's (much of it justified, some of it very much NOT justified). Let me guess, you didn't know that? There is a reason these people hate cops at a societal level, i assure you.

There is 'viciousness' being directed at ONE of the cops in the video because he is either an utterly incompetent killer, or a cold-blooded murderer.

Take your pick.

Either way, the disgraced ex-cop deserves every bit of derision we can send his way. The idiot shot a cuffed and non resisting American citizen in the back- in broad daylight- in front of an entire crowd of Americans. How can anyone possibly defend him?

At any rate, may the rest of his miserable life be spent in ignominy and shame he so richly deserves.

SLO-BOB 01-10-2009 08:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by m21sniper (Post 4410154)
The idiot shot a cuffed and non resisting American citizen in the back in broad daylight in front of an entire crowd of Americans. How can anyone possibly defend him?
No you fool..... he wasn't cuffed. That makes it completely different! Sunabtch had that one a comin!

....And he had a record. Justice is finally served. Amen!

Oh.....and it was 2 am - not broad daylight. Makes it even worse. Much more scary-er at night. :eek:

m21sniper 01-10-2009 08:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins (Post 4410143)
Watch that video again. At 4:36-4:37, you can clearly see Oscar Grant's right arm flop out freely onto the ground as the officers roll him over. He was not cuffed. Not that whether he was cuffed or not makes any difference (it is clear he was not struggling), but if folks are going to try to make this look even worse than it already is, you are going to have to come up with something else. He was not cuffed.
Looks to me like they took them off right after they shot him.

AS the kid is shot, and in the immediate aftermath, his arms do not move. They STAY in the interlaced position.

At 4:34 it looks like the shooter leans down and undoes the cuffs(or possibly cuts off zip-ties), THEN the arm flops free at 4:36. During the entire shooting and the several seconds after, that kid's hands REMAIN together behind his back.

That kid was cuffed. (but you're right, it doesn't even matter. It's irrelevant- that's a totally bad shooting regardless).

competentone 01-10-2009 08:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins (Post 4410143)
Watch that video again. At 4:36-4:37, you can clearly see Oscar Grant's right arm flop out freely onto the ground as the officers roll him over. He was not cuffed. Not that whether he was cuffed or not makes any difference (it is clear he was not struggling), but if folks are going to try to make this look even worse than it already is, you are going to have to come up with something else. He was not cuffed.
They don't want to see that.

Listen to as much of the audio as you can before the shooting. I think the audio tells a good deal about the situation. (The cursing from the crowd is one thing, but I think ultimately, the audio may show that the officer mistakenly drew his firearm when he thought he was drawing his Taser.)

m21sniper 01-10-2009 08:25 PM
It's not possible to mistake the overall weapon weight, or trigger feel/mechanism of a taser for a pistol. You'd have to be a brain dead moron to make such a mistake. And even then it may not be possible...
(This would be like grabbing a timing light and somehow thinking you were holding a .44 magnum revolver. Just not possible for someone that's at all familiar with their equipment.)

Also, a cops pistol is in a TRIPLE RETENTION holster. It takes a specific movement/sequence to unholster it.

So the tazer explanation is utterly ridiculous on it's face. And at any rate, there is zero justification for tazing a restrained and non-resisting subject anyway.

None.

At the moment that kid is shot, and until AFTER he is lifted up by his arms from behind then released, his arms remained behind his back. Because he was handcuffed.

competentone 01-10-2009 08:29 PM
I'll stop posting, poor Z-Man is probably getting tired of editing our resident "sniper's" foul language.

m21sniper 01-10-2009 08:30 PM
I haven't cursed at all in this thread. The "Edited - language removed, Z-man" quotes part of my signature.

Sheesh.

A much better reason to stop posting would be because you're painting yourself as a willfully blind-as-a-bat apologist for a totally incompetent killer with a badge.

Generally i like your posts, but you're waaaaaaaaay out in left field here. So says the "resident sniper".

competentone 01-10-2009 08:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by m21sniper (Post 4410179)
I haven't cursed at all in this thread. The "Z-man edited for language" quotes part of my signature.

Sheesh.
LOL.

I missed that completely.

(Just like you've missed a lot in the videos of the shooting.)

Jeff Higgins 01-10-2009 08:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by m21sniper (Post 4410166)
Looks to me like they took them off right after they shot him.

AS the kid is shot, and in the immediate aftermath, his arms do not move. They STAY in the interlaced position.

At 4:34 it looks like the shooter leans down and undoes the cuffs, THEN the arm flops free at 4:36. During the entire shooting and the several seconds after, that kid's hands REMAIN together behind his back.

That kid was cuffed. (but you're right, it doesn't even matter. It's irrelevant- that's a totally bad shooting regardless).
I thought it looked like he took them off as well, so I watched that few seconds several times. If he did take them off, he did it one handed. That would be hard to do. And why, if they had no idea they were being filmed, would he take them off, only to put them back on again? He would have just left them on. No, that guy was not cuffed. It's bad enough as it is; that video (and the others) are extremely damning. The cop murdered the guy.

People do not die instantly when hit by a bullet. Claiming his arms would have relaxed and fallen immediately to his side as he died is the commentator's ploy to stir things up even more so than they already are. He is either an idiot who has no idea what happens when some one gets shot, or he is hoping his audience are idiots. He is running a blog and just trying to add shock value to get more hits. This incident doesn't need that; the truth looks bad enough.

m21sniper 01-10-2009 08:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by competentone (Post 4410182)
lol.

I missed that completely.
:-p

competentone 01-10-2009 08:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by m21sniper (Post 4410179)

A much better reason to stop posting would be because you're painting yourself as a blind-as-a-bat apologist for a totally incompetent killer with a badge.
You again demonstrate your failure to pay attention.

I have said before, it looks like a "bad shooting," and I'm not "defending" the officer, and that I won't draw any final conclusions based upon what I can see in the grainy videos; I'll wait to hear the results of a careful investigation.

I know you may think I'm a "douche" for not wanting to join your mob and string the officer up on the nearest tree, but you'll have to live with the fact that there are a lot of us who enjoy living in a civilized society and don't tolerate your sort of cop-hating "mob justice."


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