Anyone ever move a floor?

[djmcmath]

My wife and I are buying an old Bungalow -- built in 1927. It's got these great high ceilings on the main floor, like 12 feet high. The upstairs, unfortunately, is unusably small -- because of the super-high ceiling on the main floor, the upstairs is all scrunched up into the roof line.

So in an alcohol-induced state of wild creativity, one of us suggested moving the floor. Tear out the entire upstairs (it's not finished, no great loss), pull up the floors (hard wood, dimensional lumber floor joists, everything), remove the main floor walls, and rebuilt the interior so it makes sense.

Now ... we can't afford to live somewhere else while it'd be happening, so we'd have to live in the garage, or the basement, either of which would be a crazy experience. We've talked it over and think that the stress is worth it. I'm more concerned about the feasibility -- can I build ledger boards into the original outer walls of the house? Will the County Permitting Office have me arrested for Constructing Under the Influence?

Anyone ever do anything like this? Is it just too crazy? Are there resources for people like us?

Thanks,
Dan

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by djmcmath

are there resources for people like us?

Alcoholics Anon?

[ruf-porsche]

Originally Posted by seahawk

alcoholics anon?

lmao

[ruf-porsche]

The second floor that you are refering to is probably the attic and was never intended to be livable space. The floor joists for the second floor are probably not capable of supporting the current load requirement for habitable space in a home. Integrating a new floor system into the existing house will be the major problem that needs to be reviewed and resolved.

Resource? Look in the Yellow page under A for ARCHITECT.

[jyl]

The rafters can be reinforced to support living space. If the roof peak is tall enough to stand, dormers can give the rest of the attic headroom. If that doesn't work, I would live with what you have, expand the house via an addition, or buy a different house. What you're hoping to do sounds like far too much work and expense to be practical.

[carambola]

why couldn't it be done?
what is the span?
what is the anticipated loads?
the easiest way to go about it would be to use balloon framing, if it's still allowed.



Disclaimer: i'm no architect but i did drink beer last night.

[SLO-BOB]

Of course it can be done. Anything is possible. But, factor in removal and replacement of drywall, flooring, the mess, all of the rough framing, all of the finish work, the electrical, the plumbing, the heating and you would probably save money by tearing it down and rebuilding.

Just keep drinking and dim the lights. It will look better as is.

[cgarr]

Its a 12 step process! first step is admitting that you want to move the floor and you are powerless to do so!

[ruf-porsche]

Just Tear it down and build a McMansion, and flip it afterward.

Oops it's no longer 2006.

[jyl]

Unless, you're after one of those couple-bonding "we've come through this together" experiences . . .

[ruf-porsche]

Originally Posted by carambola

why couldn't it be done?
what is the span?
what is the anticipated loads?
the easiest way to go about it would be to use balloon framing, if it's still allowed.



Disclaimer: i'm no architect but i did drink beer last night.

Go back to school for another six years, work for peanuts as an apprentice under a license architect, take your state board and you too could become an Architect.

[GWN7]

"built in 1927" ... That means (usually) that the ceiling and floor joists for the second floor are actually the collar ties that hold the roof rafters together. In modern roofing systems a trussed rafter is used. This ties the two angled parts of the rafter to the bottom part (the collar tie) with load supporting members that transfer the roof load between the upper and bottom plates. With your roofing system by removing the ceiling/floor joists for the second floor you would put all the roof load on to the outside walls causing the roof to sag and your walls to bow outward. If you have any roof load (any snow or a couple layers of shingles) you might end up living in the basement for a long time as there won't be any house left when the walls fall in.

I had to help a friend a couple of years ago who bought a house and the PO decided that the bottom plate in the garage (trussed roof) needed to go to make more head room. The walls were bowed out almost 4" each way. We put a 2" X 10" X 16' on each outside wall and then used two come-a-longs attached to the board via 3/8" aircraft cable to slowly pull the walls back to plumb. Then we reframed the trusses back in place. How the garage passed the PPI I'll never know.

This not to say that it can't be done. Anything can be done with enough time and money.

My advise is live in the house as it is. This way you can have friends over to drink beer and enjoy life. After a few yrs you can buy the house you want.

[Zeke]

You'll have to rebuild the stairs, most likely, unless you move the floor down exactly one riser. AFA collar ties, they can be added temporarily.

Could you consider doing a part of the upper floor with a step up into the original area? The dormer idea sounds great. Lastly, how many interior walls are affected? All the upstairs will have to be rebuilt, so finding out what the bearing wall(s) situation consists of is necessary.

[tangerine911S]

Rather than move the floor, move the roof!

[911Rob]

Considering everything you've told us;...... have another drink.

[fintstone]

My advice would also be to raise the ceiling. Most older homes either need a new roof...or will soon anyways and additional insulation. Had a former Pelican in NC (Procon) rennovate my 1927 house in NC about a year ago. It came out great. I had him put in a new roof and reframe the ceiling to make it vaulted for more height. Maybe you should call or email him for advice. He might even be willing to do the work if in between jobs. His crew is fast and reasonably priced.

[TimT]

Of course it possible, an engineer or architect would have to do some calcs etc though.

After all I jacked up my house in Vermont, left it on cribbing while I had a basement poured, then landed the house on the new basement

just takes money

[ruf-porsche]

Originally Posted by TimT

Of course it possible, an engineer or architect would have to do some calcs etc though.

After all I jacked up my house in Vermont, left it on cribbing while I had a basement poured, then landed the house on the new basement

just takes money

Heaven help you if they pour you a basement. The more water you add to concrete the weaker it becomes. If the concrete came out of the concrete truck like soup it means that someone added water to it so that they can pour your concrete.

As a license architect I would rather have them "place the concrete" instead of "pour the concrete". You don't want to know how many cement load I rejected because the slump was too low.

[TimT]

OK semantics, pour, place....whatever.

As a licensed engineer, PE, I'm quite familiar with concrete and its characteristics. Additionally the basement to my house was pumped concrete, modified with a plasticizer.

Most people don't discern between pour and place.. and many times concrete operations are referred to as "pours"

I posted a thread the other day showing some pictures of one of the jobs I supervised...

Engineers and construction guys... geeks too

and here are a few pics of another job which I have run..Supervised construction of 14 bridges in the LIE/CIP interchange reconstruction.


















[/hijack mode]

Point is you can do most anything given enough thought and enough money..

I think Fints idea of leaving the floor and "raising the roof" has merit

[ruf-porsche]

Originally Posted by TimT

OK semantics, pour, place....whatever.

I think Fints idea of leaving the floor and "raising the roof" has merit

That idea is used all the time, it's call adding a second floor to a home, although I would demo the old roof and just have a new roof install. Modern roof trusses are so much more efficient than old roof rafters and a lot cheaper.