Good man. You are a step ahead of me on the 39A, goddammit. How'd that happen? I guess I better get up off my dead ass and find one...

Looks like I am too late to the party. I was going to tell you to go with a Winchester 94 in 30-30. A .357 in a rifle is not very useful: the ballistics of a handgun with the bulk of a rifle. I would not use a .357 rifle for hunting or self defense in rifle range.

The Marlin vs. Winchester is like Chevy vs. Ford. For me the Winchester wins, because it is lighter and looks better and even Chuck Hawks says it has an edge.

Of course, at the rate you are going, there is room for another lever gun in the vault. Shoot the 30-30 some day, there is a reason it is the most popular deer hunting cartridge to date.

George

I STRONGLY disagree with the first part...Porsche vs. Mercedes maybe I could agree with however :). Sure can't go wrong with either! I don't "get" the pistol cartridges (.357 etc.) in a rifle either (except for .22lr which I guess is technically a rifle cartridge in a pistol). Different strokes...

Pistol cartridges in a rifle offer increased velocity, reduced recoil, and improved accuracy

Increased velocity (over a pistol) I'll grant that much, but not even in the same league as a rifle cartridge. Recoil isn't bad at all for a 30-30, not even close to a .357 (or a .44 mag) in a revolver imo, and the latter would be due to poor technique, lack of practice, etc. Don't mean to argue, but different strokes...rifles are rifles, and pistols are pistols, different tools for different purposes, same with the cartridges that go in 'em I suppose.

Any revolver round fired from a rifle or carbine barrel will have markedly improved ballistics. Funny, a lot of folks see the .357 mag as adequate for whitetail from a revolver, and .44 mag or .45 Colt as adequate for larger game, also from a revolver. Yet they will label a .357 lever gun as barely suitable for small rabbits. The .44 mag and .45 Colt rifles are wholey inadequate as deer rifles, falling far short of the thutty thutty.

These people read too much and hunt too little. I've killed a pretty good number of game animals with such "inadequate" combinations. Once one has done so, and has gained some experience in the field with these "inadequate" arms, one comes to realize the armchair ballisticians are pretty much full of shyte. Again, they need to hunt more and read less.

As far as any "self defense in rifle range", the very thought should make one pause. I'm not sure any jury in the land would buy "self defense" as an excuse for shooting someone at "rifle range". No, that is not the idea. A pistol caliber lever gun excells for self defense at pistol or shotgun ranges, where self defense can be legitimately argued. Many people, particularly casual shooters, do not handle handguns or shotguns very well. The blast and recoil, not to mention the inherent difficulty in hitting with the former make is very difficult for many. The sheer recoil of the latter rules it out for many. The pistol caliber lever gun is a wonderful alternative that most casual shooters can actually be comfortable with and master well enough to defend themsevles in their homes or on their property.

I find a lot of inexperienced or casual shooters look down their noses at lever guns in general, and pistol caliber lever guns in particular. In this age of advertising hype and the excess it drives, many have been convinced they need the latest and greatest .300 Super Magnum Ultra Eargeschplitzenloudenboomer, mounted with the Hubble, to kill a scrawny little whitetail at 30 yards. The old thutty thutty is barely adequate (and only used by redneck hillbillies who don't know any better), and anything less will surely just bounce off.

Conversely, as shooting experience grows, as field experience grows, so does respect for the older "inadequate" calibers and arms. The old hands tend to gravitate towards these things, as they begin to realize they have been sold a bill of goods by the firearms industry, and their kissing cousins in the firearms press. As Keith once noted, most of these "shoot better with a typwriter than with a gun..." They like to sell new stuff. Guns don't wear out. Great grandpa's "inadequate" old rifle kills deer as well today as it did for great grandpa. If the word ever got out, and entire industry would suffer...

I'd have to agree with this. I'd wager that I've practiced a lot more than typical handgun owners and likely more than typical "home defense" shotgun owners as well. One thing that has been clear since getting the long guns is that by comparison I suck with a pistol. And while a shotgun has a nice spread, when I did a "tactical" exercise, I was all over the place with it. Sure, with practice I'll get better, but how many owners actually practice?

The lever gun otoh - just went where I pointed it. And with ghost rings on it I found pointing very easy. Recoil on the .357 was nothing, in marked contrast to .357 in a revolver. Of course there was some recoil on the 45-70, but even that was manageable...much easier than the 870.

As for the other parts about killing game, here's a quote from my buddy on that:

(my emphasis) :p

I've had sort of the opposite experience. I used to shoot rifles maybe once a year at most, but handguns a few times per month. When I got my M4 all set up and then bought my Remington 700, I felt like such a novice. No one will believe me, but I find rifles far more demanding of special skills, breathing techniques, posture, poise, etc. Perhaps it's just the scope zeroing at different distances. A little breeze doesn't make too much difference when shooting a handgun at 7-10 yds., but it makes a big difference with rifles at 100-200 yds. I know I need to keep the handgun chops up, but feel very competenet with the ones I carry. I used to have good days and bad days at the range with them, but now it's the same every time (always good). I find rifles far more challenging. I think I need to find some low-level competitions, maybe some IDPA stuff to get me to the next level with handguns, while I do more rifle work.

Rick, the issue is that in a home defense situation you won't be shooting someone at 100-200m. That likely wouldn't qualify as home defense, more like sniping ;)

Go to the range and shoot at 12m with both rifle and pistol and see which you're more accurate with. And forget the breathing techniques - you aren't going to do that in a home defense situation. Just aim and shoot.

Rick, keeping this in context - precision, long range rifle shooting is a game unto itself. A very addicting, very challenging game at that. But we are discussing the merits of the lever gun at self defense ranges. What we have to practice a great deal to achieve with a handgun becomes almost laughably easy with a lever gun. Hits that are difficult in a "tactical" situation with a handgun are child's play (relatively) with the lever gun.

Jeff, I don't hunt anymore, haven't in years (I've spent my "back to nature" time with a fishing rod in my hands these past two decades :)), and concede to your vast experience over mine regarding pistol rounds in a rifle. However, I did hunt as a young teen, and learning to shoot a 30-30 properly and accurately as a scrawny 125 lb kid was no problemo back then, much less as a fully grown man. I listened to my uncle (former Alaskan guide and a true woodsman, heck he won't even hunt w/ black powder since the modern ones appeared, strictly a bow these days), and he directed me to a 30-30 as my selection for a first rifle (as opposed to a 30-06, etc.), and pistol cartridges were UNHEARD of in a rifle back then. I guess I do see the point...just not for me. For defensive purposes, if one is not proficient (I prefer a .45 ACP), I would think a 12ga. with '00 trumps them all.

Have you shot one lately? For someone that doesn't practice with a shotgun the act of racking it will be the most effective deterrent because beyond that they probably won't be able to hit anything moving with it. I find a 12 gauge a pretty hard beast to control - you gotta be comfortable and really mean it when you wield it. It will scare the crap out of most bad guys though.

I've always been a "pistol guy", although I do own a few long guns and have since I was a teen. Heck, I don't even keep a round "chambered" in my .45, because I'm of the opinion, that I'll have plenty of time to hear someone making entry into my house before they are "upon me". I keep most guns locked up, but not that one, and like "that extra bit of safety" since I occasionally have a neighbor's kid, etc. in my house (sometimes "alone" as in going in to use the bathroom). I'm willing to make that "compromise" on the side of safety. That said, racking that .45 in the still of the night has a pretty distinct sound too. Enjoy your new "toys"!!! I learned a LONG time ago to stay out of gun shops (and a few other places) as I am a "recovering addict" too :). I had "the bug" all through my teens and early 20s...

GUILTY! SmileWavy

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1237412586.jpg

I do not think recommending caliber 30-30 for a lever gun is an opinion that should create much controversy. 30-30 ammo can be bought anywhere, and to date a lever action 30-30 is the most common deer rifle in America. It certainly is not the latest high power caliber pushed by the gun industry.

When I mentioned self defense at rifle range, I did not talk about defending yourself in your hallway or shooting from your rooftop. There are self defense situations when you are in the outdoors or during serious SHTF scenarios where you will be happy if you have something that reaches out and still carries a good thump when it gets there.

For nostatic this all isn't too important anyway. He hasn't planned on hunting yet and for a self defense rifle that Mini14 will do the trick. SmileWavy

George

yeah, besides I'll end up with a 336 and a 45-70 guide gun anyway :p

You must be planning for close in Grizzly encounters on desert BLM land. :D

George

Marlin 444 any good? I got a guy looking to trade me one for one of my guns.

Take off the scope and you won't need that stupid thumb extender on the hammer either. SmileWavy

The sights on that rifle are good enough!

I certainly agree that the old thutty thutty is a fantastic choice in a hunting rifle. I would happily hunt just about anything anywhere for the rest of my days with one, especially in the lower 48. No arguments from me whatsoever. Your suggestion is not controversial in the least.

The only part of your statement I take exception to is "A .357 in a rifle is not very useful: the ballistics of a handgun with the bulk of a rifle." I strongly disagree (obviously...); the .357 in a lever gun is a very useful rifle under a broad variety of circumstances. Especially for Nostatic's purposes, it is actually far more useful than the .30-30.

"I would not use a .357 rifle for hunting..." Well, he's not... Not that it would be a bad choice for deer hunting in the woods; many deer fall to the .357 every year, from revolvers, single shot pistols, and lever guns. It kills them as well as anything else at woods ranges.

"...or self defense in rifle range." He has the Mini-14 for that. But, again, this appocolyptic Mad Max/Escape from New York/Waterworld/Boy and His Dog (my favorite, by the way) scenario of urban survival after "the big one" is hardly realistic, despite the modern day militia types' fantasies. Even in the worst two breakdowns of law and order in recent history (L.A. riots and post Katrina N.O.), we saw no one with a need to defend themselves at "rifle ranges". As an aside, there was actually a rather famous (in shooting circles, anyway) case of a Chinese gentleman defending his business from looters during the L. A. riots. He never left the store, and never shot anyone that was not trying to enter and loot it. His defensive arm of choice (employed to very good effect, I might add)? A .30-30 lever gun.

Anyway, it's all good. You may have noticed I like talking up guns. I've spent many a fine evening around the campfire having these discussions; there is never a right or wrong answer for everyone.