It may be your situation, but its neither reality nor the truth.

My student years were extraordinarily challenging and intellectually stimulating, and they opened up an entire universe of ideas—ideas I would never have come across (or at least not tested systematically) in the so called real world. I dabbled in many subjects and learned something about all of them in the process before settling on Philosophy and the eventually Law.

The opportunity to study at a good school under good professors is a beautiful thing that will stay with you for life.

That said, there are undoubtedly jobs and careers out there for which a relevant education is not a prerequisite. But even for people contemplating a career in one of those jobs, I'd think you would be mad not to seize the opportunity (if you have it) to get a broader education first.

It took a page and a half, but some people here finally got around to the point that college or university isn't JUST about getting a job.

Think of it like this - you go to a gym to train your body to be strong and healthy. You will gain the ability to, say, lift a certain weight or do a certain type of work, but overall you're gaining a healthy and strong body. This is exactly what university does for your intellect. It doesn't matter what you study, it's the fact that you're strenuously exercising your mind. This is what university will give you that will last with you the rest of your life.

And snipe, add me to the list of people who disagree with you. The world is full of mediocre artists, and I suspect a large part of that mediocrity is lack of knowledge of other arts and the general world around them. I'm not at all suggesting your art is mediocre - I've never seen it, so I couldn't judge. But the best artists have drawn from their world experience. Some of the worst artists, ironically enough, are those that never get out of the university system - it can be a vacuum too.

Yes........OMG yes..

M21

To some extent, you're correct about rewards/education. However, take me for example. There are three people who do what I do for my employer, which is motion picture and television production safety. I have a BS in Environmental, Health & Safety, another guy has a BS in Criminal Justice, and the third guy doesn't have a college degree, but he is a certified Emergency Medical Technician. My employer went through a round of layoffs last month, and we were all concerned; none of us got the axe. I THINK, of the three of us, I would have been retained, and one of the others let go, had they decided to cut my department. Why? I'm the only one with an actual science background, while I don't use a lot of my education everyday, I'm the only one of the three of us with any serious math, chemistry, physics, noise, ventilation, etc. background. I also happen to be the only Certified Industrial Hygienist, Registered Environmental Assessor, Certified Hazardous Materials Manager and Qualified Environmental Professional, in the entire industry that is involved in motion picture and television production safety.

The universe of people in that profession happens to be about 20 people in the entire world. I bring great weight to the Industry-Wide Labor-Management Safety Committee, which writes the motion picture and television Safety Bulletins, which are the standard for film production throughout the world. Because of the above education and credentials, I THINK my job is more secure than those of my two colleagues, I could be wrong.

Re: taking a wide swath of courses or buckling down on Engineering prerequisites...

-Always wanted to take some upper-division Economics classes

All the Engineering Math, Computer and Physics classes are offered over the summer at Berkeley, and through community colleges.

Do I get ahead on Engineering while still at UCB, or take the upper division Econ. courses here that I cannot take over the summer (after graduation)? Taking Econ next year would add 6 months to 1 year to my plan to get an Engineering degree, i.e., 3.5-4 years from now.

What do I really want to be doing? Something related to building things--Engineering, of some sort. Business, I think, eventually, but I'll work before doing the MBA. I wouldn't mind building computers, working for a major car company, or even running my own business.

The reason I did Cognitive Science is that it is an interdisciplinary major--so far, I have taken courses in 17 departments on campus. I could not have done that many if I had been working on Engineering this whole time. I am very glad I have gone this route, despite the fact it is a little more circuitous to getting an Engineering degree.

I have three Bachelor of Science degrees and two Master's. Had I stopped after the first MS, I'd have been educated and working/running hard with a lot of busy work. After continuing on in school, I sometimes work long hours and am personally responsible for decisions/actions with real-time consequences(anesthesia), sometimes work at night and am well compensated.

I could have eliminated a lot of school with a good initial plan BUT I think my years in school (gaining critical thinking skills) frequently allows me a significant "leg up" on people doing the same job...sometimes when it really counts. I'm not sure that I'd be satisfied today if I'd not done the extra time when I could.

Your mileage may vary.

True to a point, but that's largely due to protection mechanisms that have been put in place over the years by strong professional societies (incidentally one of my beefs about the AIA with respect to architects - they fail miserably to protect the profession against being undermined by those without the requisite training in the same way law and medicine have done...)

Anyway, you still can become a paralegal (and make pretty good money) without a law degree, and you can still work in health care (and make pretty good money) without a medical degree. My father-in-law just retired from Verizon as an executive V.P. worth megabucks a couple of years ago. He had an associate's degree from years back in engineering studies (not a PE). Eventually he went on to earn a B.S. and an MBA, but this was after he'd made executive-level. The point is that the degree TENDS to open doors, but it is absolutely not a requirement for someone to do what they want to do except in very specific situations (e.g. jobs that might require an M.D., a J.D., or a PE).

There are an awful lot of slackers and do-nothings out there today WITH degrees that are content to be nothing more than cogs in various corporate machinery. Hardly worth the cost of admission to do something like that. For the small percentage that is going to overachieve anyway and kick butt and be entrepreneurial, the degree is incidental anyway. For people like that, it's typically not needed - they can work around it and still be very successful.

Most of the modern educational system is driven by money, for the sake of making more money - not because it's any indication of great aptitude or skill as it was maybe 40+ years ago. Nowadays it's just getting one's ticket punched for the vast majority and ensures in most cases (and in normal economic times) that you don't have to work at Jiffy Lube. That's about it.

I simply disagree. Respectfully, but strongly.

So were my non college years. Life is extraordinarily challenging, you should try the infantry sometime if you want to be challenged.

Same thing is true of the military, under a good sergeant and good officers.

Yes, why skip out on the "opportunity" to waste $100k or more on totally irrelevant skills. That is money you'll never recover either, because the "charlatan" will be earning for those 4 years and be up 4 years of experience plus tuition plus previous earnings on you before you even send out your first resume.

Because afterall, a man is defined by a piece of paper, not himself. ;)

To me, based on the things i hear when i talk to most young chicks(i love you God), they view it as another 4 years of party/vacation time before they have to really grow up.

I suspect the best artists- like the best musicians- have never spent a day in a university.

All the best ones i know, that's the case. I know a lad that gets $50k a pop for airbrushing nightclubs(he's reaaaaally good) all up and down the East coast, he didn't even graduate HS.

Know another fella that does custom work on Lears and such (plus has 2 stores- 1 in philly 1 on the jersey shore), he has a community college degree.

My old art instructor got (in the mid 80s) $10k a pop for his oils, he was just a HS grad.

Honestly, art has nothing to do with math, english, chemistry, nothing. Less than nothing. It has to do with practice, and being around other artists to learn and share techniques.

As far as learning, in the age of the internet, when anyone can go online and learn pretty much anything as long as they're motivated enough to do so, i really don't see any point any more. It doesn't make you more money, it doesn't gain you exclusive knowledge, it does burn a huge hole in your pocket and waste several of your prime earning years though.

To each their own.

It only makes sense if you want to be a doctor, or lawyer, or some other extremely technical field where you cannot BS and stumble your way through the first few months of OJT. For any field where that's possible(which is probably 95% of them), going to college is going to cost you an immense amount of money, far beyond the tuition.

Seriously, my old man makes about $10k net a week (in philly dollars- you could probably double that for you Cali guys) and has never spent a single minute in college. How many college graduates ever make that kind of money in their life?

You might be right, but there's also a good chance you'd get the axe last because, simply, you are the best of the 3 and you are the most dedicated, or the boss simply likes you personally the most.

Sometimes it's the "overqualified" guy that goes first- because they command the highest premium.

I don't know your profession at all, so it would be insane for me to try and say whether or not your degree is of real merit. All i know is that in the field i went to school for, and the one i just considered taking some classes in, it would not be.

There is no doubt that someone like an engineer or a lawyer or a doctor definitely needs to go to school because of the extremely technical nature of his field.

But things like MBAs, etc, no. There are plenty of guys making huge scratch in small businesses without any college at all. All that takes is courage, commitment, hard work, guts, and (as always) some good luck.

Honestly of all the qualities needed to become rich in small business, guts is the most important. Last i checked they don't teach guts in college. I assume you got your dose of it in the USMC. ;)

m21sniper, for the purposes of this topic, ie., pursuing Engineering, you acknowledged that it is necessary to go on in school. OK-you apparently think college is overrated/not worth it; that's fine...but it doesn't answer my question..

I am not asking where I can go to make the most money. The answer to that is actually not hard.

I am asking if anyone went on to get another bachelor's degree (in anything), because you can't really go into a graduate level Engineering program or something that requires those basic undergrad classes in Math and science.

Right now, I am even thinking about completing a minor in math (Advanced Linear Algebra, Abstract Alg., Numerical and Real Analysis, etc.), as lots of more advanced math is fundamental for any program in physics, Engineering, Computer Science or Economics.

Rightly or wrongly, I have always made it a point to take the classes that other smart people recommended to me as being valuable to their education as people, and not just to complete a degree.

Next question: Which Engineering discipline? Civil, Electrical, Nuclear, Chemical, Mechanical, Geological, Materials Science...? Pros and cons. I know what I like and there is a fair amount of overlap between a few of them (e.g., geological/fluids from M.E., Materials and any other Engr. discipline, Nuclear and ElectricalE, etc.). Where do you think the most new advancements will be found and in demand in the next 20 years? I am thinking Nuclear.

What Math/Science classes did you find MOST helpful, regardless of particular "major" discipline?

Scott, I think you are borderline what I call a professional student? I see that alot these days; can't blame you, college was definitely a great time of my life.

I've read most of this thread and I have a general agreement with the educated posters here; gotta love learning! Prolly why I hang around here? One thing is FOR SURE and that is I'm not gonna take any advise from someone that doesn't have the lifestyle I'd want. Period. So Scott, your posts are very good in the sense that you are seeking this out, cheers to you.

My life has followed a path of building on what I already knew; I wanted to learn the things that would help me become successful as a person. Education wise, there's no way I'm going to depend on the knowledge of someone else in my chosen career of development; thus I schooled myself enough to learn what I needed to know.

Fact is, out of the educated population, probably about 90% of us don't use about 90% of what we've learned.... but it does open doors of opportunity and very likely most importantly it opens your mind, giving you the confidence you need to succeed in the industry of your chosen education. Some people can short cut the system, but that is very, very rare and I strongly feel that the people that do have a very strong and inherent ability to be entrepreneurs.

Very few people are EVER gonna reinvent the wheel; so it's very likely that what you are choosing to do, has been done in some fashion by somebody else. My advise to all is to seek these people out, find the one's that have the "lifestyle" that you want and then emulate them.

So to your point Scott, if you're asking me I'd say get out of school as quickly as possible and start making some money man. Learn how to educate yourself. Start building your personal library; read, read, read. It's all there for the taking, you don't need a Uni or College to learn? Then choose a discipline that merits itself for future "self employment". It's 2009 buddy and the JOB is over!

I was faced with the same question (to myself) when I sought out an education; this/that? I chose construction because I already knew a few things about it and I always enjoyed it. From there I went straight to the top.

Regrets? No, but there may have been some other options? Looking back I'd make sure I took the time to enjoy all that life has to offer; that being said, yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, but today is a present!

Good luck!