Dottore, you (and the rest of you, for that matter) need to understand a few things about traffic enforcement in Washington. Not many states have gone as far down the garden path as we have...

In Washington, speeding is a non-criminal "infraction". As such, the rules are far different than one might expect. First and foremost, the evidence standard is that of "preponderance", which sounds like a great deal, but is actually 51%. In other words, if the court determines that 51% of the "evidence" presented favors the officer, you lose. Practically speaking, that means if he says you were speeding, you lose. That is the "51%" the court is looking for. Additionally, you have no right to a jury trial, representation, or appeal. The officer(s) need not be there, nor the prosecutor. You must request their presence. And yes, they will show up - all of their cases get scheduled on the same day, and they just spend their day in court. On overtime. The fines collected more than pay for that.

No story, no evidence that you present in court will be enough to dig your way out of that hole. Citizens only win on technicalities in this state, not on evidence. If it goes to court you have already lost. If you hire a lawyer, their goal must be dismissal or reduction before it makes it that far. Particularly in our two "toughest" counties for traffic citations - Chelan and Kittitas.

Ellensburg is in Kittitas County... I sat through a whole day of traffic court (waiting for my case) in front of Bob the traffic clerk one day (he is ostensibly a "judge", to be addressed as "your honor", but believe me, he is a disgrace to any such title, operating as a low-level clerk with a rubber stamp). Bob finds everybody in his court "committed", even those with lawyers. Everybody.

Our best Seattle area traffic lawyers won't even go over there. It's not worth their time - it only drags down their winning percentage. Chelan and Kittitas Counties are notorious for their traffic ticket generated revenue streams. Hate to be so glum, but that's just the way it is. There is almost no way to win over there. Bob makes all kinds of wild, unsupported presumptions about why the cop must have pulled you over. Bob denies all motions. Bob blows off any and all citizens' testimonies. Bob is the king of his little world. Just pay the ticket.

Jeff, I'm glad you chimed in—but that is depressing. Why on God's earth do you put up with such a system in Washington? That calls for a revolution surely.

So you mean to say, if I can prove there was no aircraft in the sky that day, and they have expressly ticketed me based on a non-existant aircraft—I can still lose this thing?
Just because the officer says I was speeding and it's his word against mine?

Sounds like a great topic for a TV news story - how counties strapped for cash are turning to quasi-legal methods to raise money through fraudulent traffic tickets. The non-existent airplane is a great part of the story and I'm sure will sound very interesting on the news...

Jeff - what is the status of your case mentioned in the other thread?

If its as you say Jeff, he could sue the officer. But he better have a case. Good luck trying to get a lawyer for that one.

I would gladly fight it if a) I were local (Dottore is not) OR b) it would help put an end to this system (it wont).

No one said he should be thankful. It is simple case of cost versus benefit. It's not worth his time. Dealing with crap like this (or the risk thereof) appears to be the cost of driving through that area.

Read Jeff Higgins salient comments on page 4. And his final conclusion. You can always fight city hall, but it is not always wise to do so.

National Motorist Association is an activist anti-ticket group w/all kinds of info

You may or may not need to pay this. But no newspaper will care to run it as "news" and every public authority is in on the scam.

But I would spend a few hundred $$ in advertizing fees to run your story in the local paper. The good people of that burg should know what is being done in their good name.:mad:

Insane, isn't it? Most folks stumble on, completely unaware of how severely their rights have been compromised. We are, however, beginning to see more and more unrest as more and more citizens get caught up in this trap. As the greed for increased revenue takes over, the authorities that have been taking advantage of this get nearer to killing their golden goose. I can see this coming to a head in the near future.

I would be surprised if there were no aircraft in the sky that day. The difficulty I see is in proving just where it was at that moment in time. One would think it would be incumbent upon the officers involved to prove that the pilot/spotter had actually identified your car, and had made a proper "handoff" to the ground-based unit. One would think they must provide radio transcripts, or something tangible to prove they followed proper procedure. Well, maybe, technically they do. Just not in Bob's "court".

They day I sat in Bob's court, there was a state patrol pilot on hand to answer Bob's questions. Bob took him on his word that he had kept the car in sight until the ground unit was in sight, and had confirmed identification. Purely the two officers' word; no proof required. It was up to the unlucky saps who had been caught up in this little sham to prove otherwise. Just how is one supposed to do that? If the airplane was in the air at all, "patroling" the I-90/Hwy 97/Hwy 2 area, who is to say just where it was at any given moment? Records are not that detailed. On purpose, apparently.

LOL...well i'm pretty sure they don't have airplane enforcement...

Might write this up and sent it to your local representative and the newspaper. This scam needs to be stopped.

jeff and dottore,
it turns out that one of the seattle-based attorneys i currently use does work in ellensburg (and the rest of kittitas county) and actually has won cases in ellensburg. the strategy is to bump the bad judge and get a different one, among other things. here's what they had to say;

As for Kittitas, yes, I work it, and I've even won cases in Ellensburg and Cle Elum, but it's harder in Ellensburg. So for Ellensburg cases, I must get retained EARLY and before a hearing is set. There is a very limited amount of time for me to bump the bad judge in Ellensburg. After that time period has passed, the case gets progressively harder if the case has to be heard in Ellensburg.

i will PM both of you the contact info.

Remind me never to go to WA. state again in this life. As if I needed a reason...

Mark, a few more thoughts for you:

1) Ellensburg Police don't drive pickups and don't work the freeway.
2) Kittitas County does drive some pickups and does work the freeway, their last two Sheriffs have been retired State Troopers, they work a lot of traffic.
3) Fish and Wildlife agents work the area quite a bit and are on the State Patrol Radio frequency.
4) I've been stopped by airplane patrols a few times on my motorcycle and never saw a plane either.
5) Washington State has a fairly new program to "defer" it going on your record. Since it's designed to raise revenue, you appear in court, pay something like $205 and the ticket is dismissed after a year if you don't have another. You can do that once every 10 yrs.
6) Like Jeff says, it's tough to win in traffic court in Kittitas. It's kinda a closed minded community of cowboys that don't take well to "outsiders"
7) Being Memorial day weekend, I know they were out in fore......G'luck....

i see the 'deferred' option as basically still supporting (and promoting, and funding) their abuse of authority behavior, so i would never choose that option.

That is pretty much what I heard from a different lawyer. Get the case out of Bob's court, or there is no chance whatsoever. I ignored that advice...

Having not had a ticket in something like 25 years, I decided to go it alone, take a day off from work, and make the drive to Ellensburg. I have a boyhood friend there anyway, and I don't get to see him enough. I wanted to see what traffic court was all about these days.

I sat through the whole session, even after my case had been heard. To say I was shocked and disgusted would be an understatement. The whole thing played out as I have always imagined it would in some third world military dictatorship system. The contempt the court displayed for the citizens before it was outrageous. In the four hours I was there, I saw no real evidence presented and not a single citizen found "not committed". Not one. The sketchier the report accompanying the ticket the better - mine provided nothing beyond what was written on the ticket, and was written several days after the ticket to boot. Didn't bother Bob in the least. Rather, it gave him the leeway to make assumptions that favored the officer.

Such a system has allowed our officers to become lazy, bordering on corrupt. There is simply no reason not to write you up; they have nothing to lose, no skin in the game, nothing they need to prove. So, when in doubt, write it out. No one in Washington writes warnings anymore. Where the vast majority of traffic stops twenty years ago resulted in a warning, an insignificant percentage does today. We are now home to one of the most revenue driven, rights trampling, corrupt systems of traffic enforcement in the nation. Sorry you got caught up in it.

In Pa only state troopers are allowed to use radar. That cuts out 90% of the speed trap shennanigans most other states seem to suffer from.

We don't have jury trials, but we do get full right of appeal and all that jazz. In Philly if you get convicted you just appeal and they plea -everything- (except DUI) down to no points/no suspension, fine only.

You don't even need a lawyer.

Is a speed trap (which is the technical term for using the mile markers and timing your progress from one to the next in order to determine vehicle speed) even allowed in Washington? I didn't click on all the links, so I'm sorry if this has already been mentioned. At least in California this practice is prohibited. Use of an airplane is OK in Cali, but not to officially measure time/speed. The aircraft can measure the speed, but then has to contact a ground unit to verify the infraction and issue the ticket. At least, that's my understanding of the law; never tested it. I don't ever speed, so what do I have to worry about?

Don't make the mistake of thinking Oregon is any better...

Measuring speed from an aircraft, using the markers on the ground, is perfectly legal here. There are laws about the "handoff", or verification that the ground unit does indeed have the correct vehicle. No way to prove or disprove whether they were followed, however. If the officers claim to have followed them, that's good enough.

Sniper, in Washington, every department has RADAR or laser guns. It used to be a pretty rare sight to see them in use, from a stationary vehicle, running a speed trap. Now I see at least two or three a day, every day. This, in a day and age when departments inform us that they do not have the manpower and resources to investigate property crime. Just unbelievable.

Like I said, I think their greed is about to kill the golden goose. People are getting pissed.