So..you want to shoot Grandpa's shotgun? LOOK HERE..

targa911S · 10-31-2011, 03:57 AM

This is just scary, no not me, but a warning to all of you who think it's OK to shoot modern ammo in an old shotgun. A word to the wise..the last pic is chilling. This was not some POS cheap gun either, it "was" an old L C Smith.

sc_rufctr · 10-31-2011, 04:10 AM

OOOOOuch... Is there a way to safely test and old gun to make sure this doesn't happen?

I'm guessing even if an old gun passed the test it may fail at some point anyway.

targa911S · 04:22 AM

A LONG string. But you are right...any time. Modern ammunition pressure is 3X than it was when most old guns were made. If the gun is valuable enough you could have it re-proofed. Frenchy knows more about that subject as we don't proof guns in the US. Silly but true.

GH85Carrera · GH85Carrera's Garage

Wow.

Does someone make a shotgun shell that is a soft load for old guns, or do you just have it load your own shells to safely shoot an antique shotgun?

I guess that shooter can be called stumpy now.

targa911S · 10-31-2011, 05:00 AM

Yes but 12, 16, and 20 ga. only. .410 you would have to load yourself or contact them for a custom order.

Polywad - Shotgun Shell Developer and Manufacturer - (800) 998-0669

herr_oberst · 10-31-2011, 05:03 AM

Someone once gave me a cheap, made-in-brazil, single-shot for home defense.

Bad idea on so many levels.

Turned it in to the cops during one of those don't ask don't tell deals.

I'm REALLY glad I did. This is exactly one of the things that worried me about that 'weapon'.

sc_rufctr · 10-31-2011, 05:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by targa911S

A LONG string. But you are right...any time. Modern ammunition pressure is 3X than it was when most old guns were made. If the gun is valuable enough you could have it re-proofed. Frenchy knows more about that subject as we don't proof guns in the US. Silly but true.

Is there a reason you don't proof guns in the US? (legal?)

targa911S · 10-31-2011, 05:13 AM

It's not mandated like it is in Europe. If they don't have to, they won't.

azasadny · azasadny's Garage

I always recommend that people don't shoot an older gun with the newer ammo. If the gun is an "heirloom" or of sentimental value, why take the chance of hurting someone or damaging the gun?

VaSteve · 10-31-2011, 05:53 AM

Damn. That's like an Elmer J Fudd gun now. Wow.

fred cook · fred cook's Garage

Interesting where and how it split. Since it does not appear to be damascus steel, was it fluid steel or mandrel wrapped and welded steel? I would think that a high grade gun like an Elsie would not had done that UNLESS there was an obstruction in the barrel. At any rate, Targa911S is right, before shooting an old gun, make certain that it is safe to do so. Some of the oldies are built much stronger than others. I have an 1871 Springfield rolling block in 50-70 that I would not hesitate to shoot. I also have an old Belgian made 12 gauge that belonged to my great grandfather that you could not pay me to shoot! Think and use common sense!

svandamme · svandamme's Garage

define "old" 50 years / 100 years old?

id10t · 10-31-2011, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by svandamme

define "old" 50 years / 100 years old?

Aside from rust damage, I think the cut-off would be in the 1920s ... when damascus (twist) steel was no longer used.

Of course, if you have a nice old gun w/ possibly unsafe steel, you may want to check into having Briley (or a similar company) put full length sub-gauge liners in it. Turn your 12 into a safe to shoot 20 or 28 ...

svandamme · svandamme's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by targa911S

It's not mandated like it is in Europe. If they don't have to, they won't.

As far as i can tell, proofmarks on a gun doesn't necesarily mean it has been tested for breaking points.

To me , in Belgium t just means the gun has been checked for conformity in terms of legislation. for instance the 1911 i bought has proof marks on the slide, the barrel and on the frame..

Anything with a proofmark means you can't buy it without a permit.
And it doesn't mean that i have a permit for a 1911, that i can buy another barrel, no , if i want to buy another barrel i need a new permit OR i have to have the old one destroyed. If i buy a barrel without a proofmark, for instance from the US.. i'de get in trouble if they catch me with it... That would constitute an illegal , unregistred gun, even though teh slide and frame do have the mark.

The Belgian proofing authority do test ammo batches for conformity (i guess like SAAMI does?), but the weapons themself aren't proofed for upper limits.. I don't think they can do that without actually testing a sample to destruction.

So what do they test (translated from the website in Belgium)

they check the type, caliber, serial
Visual check of the weapon
dimensional check
Check or function
Check of the safeties
They fire a couple of test rounds
a magnaflux check after test firing
visual check
new dimensional check
applying the proofmarks

I would hesitate to see such a proof mark as a guarantee it will work with a certain kind of ammo..

Sure the magnaflux after test firing might not show any problems
It may be "an" indication.. but it won't tell you if the gun takes P+ or +P+ ammo or not.. it just means the gun didn't explode at the proofing instance.

Is a proofing round used in the test, based on .45 ACP from 1911, or .45 ACP in 2011??

To me it's just a basic check to make sure the gun works
and more importantly, that the govermenent knows it's a semi auto and not a full auto which would be illegal.

I'm not industry expert , just my guess about what a proofmark means , at least here in Belgium

vash · vash's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by svandamme

define "old" 50 years / 100 years old?

great question!

what is the vintage of the shotgun in the pic?

notmytarga · notmytarga's Garage

I am no weapons expert (other than trying to explain to my 8 year old son that ninja's don't haul around an arsenal with them - on Halloween) BUT, Lordy that barrel steel looks awfully thin - like sheet metal. Looks to be less than 1/16 or 1/32" - I would expect 1/8" from the few shotguns I've used. Even so, what are the chances that the barrel on this gun was obstructed?

bell · bell's Garage

do i need to worry about my british.303? it was made in the late 30' s early 40' s iirc......I've been using modern.303 ammo and surplus in it..........

targa911S · 10-31-2011, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by id10t

Aside from rust damage, I think the cut-off would be in the 1920s ... when damascus (twist) steel was no longer used.

Of course, if you have a nice old gun w/ possibly unsafe steel, you may want to check into having Briley (or a similar company) put full length sub-gauge liners in it. Turn your 12 into a safe to shoot 20 or 28 ...

Excellent advice!

targa911S · 10-31-2011, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vash

great question!

what is the vintage of the shotgun in the pic?

I'm guessing 1920's.

targa911S · 10-31-2011, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bell

do i need to worry about my british.303? it was made in the late 30' s early 40' s iirc......I've been using modern.303 ammo and surplus in it..........

Well ..it's a rifle and it has much thicker walls than a shotgun. Barring an obstruction, you should be fine.