Residential Architect help needed..

[yasir]

We are currently in the process of re-doing our house and have been talking to an architect to help design it...
My question is,how do you pay the architect ?
He wants 7% of the total project with the following breakdown.
a)-Concept 15%
b)-Drawing 15-20%
c)-Construction documents 35%
d)-Construction 25%
The project will be well into $300,000+ ....
I asked him about the differences in clause c and d and he couldn't come up with a concrete answer...
The problem is,yesterday he brought some detailed drawings of the concept we have worked up along with an invoice of $7000
We have always told him that we first need to get a floor plan so that we can discuss it with a builder to see if this project is even with in our budget or not.. and he is,all worked up with 3-D images of the house with the floor plans that we didn't even like...
Please guide..
Thanks

[stomachmonkey]

Well if he has done work without a mutual agreement then he's ***** outa luck.

Don't know about how they normally bill but his actions so far would make me hesitant. Yes he may be eager/excited/motivated but if he does not listen to the client then what good is it.

You know there are a couple of Architects here on the board that might be interested in the work.

Good luck.

[dad911]

I would never go for a percentage of costs. There is no incentive for architect to save you money, it will be in his best interest to over-design all structure & finishes, etc... Plus, if you upgrade granite/cabinets/appliances/tile... the 'big ticket items' there is no additional work for the architect.

I pay by the square foot for new plans/new construction, but that is totally different.

Having said that, a good architect can easily save you money. Try to get recommendations.

You should be able to scope out the work, and get a fixed price. Be sure ask about addition costs like as-builts and field changes.

[kach22i]

RE:
a)-Concept 15%
b)-Drawing 15-20%
c)-Construction documents 35%
d)-Construction 25%

I don't want to quibble about labels but some architects might have done it this way.

a)-Preliminary Design 25%
b)-Schematic Design 15%
c)-Construction Documents 50%
d)-Construction Observation 5%

This is weighted more in the architects favor and less towards actual experience. It's front loaded in case the project gets put on hold, or the owner takes over construction observation to save a few bucks at the near the end.

The 7% is in line with the lower end of fees. If you are not willing to pay around the same the state is making on sales tax (in Michigan 6%) you are not allowing the architect to do a good job (or redo in this case). Since you know the project costs (more or less) you may make the fee fixed, but remember extra work and changes into the CD period will have to be paid for.

Design is about making decisions and choices. If someone brings you one design, they are offering no choice and no decision making process.

If this is some famous architect branding his work with a cookie cutter and you are acting as his patron saint, then great. However most architects are a service professionals. Imagine a chef creating a custom meal for you and your family, and NOT a waiter talking your order off a menu.

1. I listen, interpet and generate alternates to consider.

2. The initinal product or "concept sketches" will be three basic different ideas, with a couple of variants on each (freehand on tracing paper). we sit down, throw a few schemes out (while the owners is screaming; YOU ARE NOT LISTENING TO US), combine a few more and meet again with it drafted out on Autocad or a refined hand drawing. We are still in the first phase.

I try to remember that the owner is asking for help defining the problem and solving the design problem (even when the owner says; we know exactly what we want).

If there was no problem, there would be no work, and a draftsperson could just do it.

Tell the architect to come back with three to six rough floor plans (not perfect, just ideas), you are right to start with the floor plans, but someone (the architect) should be steering the ship towards friendly massing and final looks in the back of his head, and at all times.

I hope this helps.

I'm not registered in Kentucky, good luck.

[yasir]

Originally Posted by dad911

I would never go for a percentage of costs. There is no incentive for architect to save you money, it will be in his best interest to over-design all structure & finishes, etc... Plus, if you upgrade granite/cabinets/appliances/tile... the 'big ticket items' there is no additional work for the architect.

I

Great info..so what's the right way of paying an architect for designing and working thru the entire project
Thanks

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by yasir

Great info..so what's the right way of paying an architect for designing and working thru the entire project
Thanks

By period and or phase of project or upon monthly invoices. This should be defined in the written contract.

Even a one page contract is better than nothing, defines the work and helps prevent misunderstandings later.

Is he designing the kitchen?

Is he doing interior elevations of all major rooms or features?

Has he included structural engineer fees and his other possible costs?

The more work, the higher the fee. The more time spent in preliminary design, the more pressure to do skimpy bare bones CD's.

[yasir]

Originally Posted by kach22i

RE:
I don't want to quibble about labels but some architects might have done it this way.

a)-Preliminary Design 25%
b)-Schematic Design 15%
c)-Construction Documents 50%
d)-Construction Observation 5%

This is weighted more in the architects favor and less towards actual experience. It's front loaded in case the project gets put on hold, or the owner takes over construction observation to save a few bucks at the near the end.

The 7% is in line with the lower end of fees. If you are not willing to pay around the same the state is making on sales tax (in Michigan 6%) you are not allowing the architect to do a good job (or redo in this case). Since you know the project costs (more or less) you may make the fee fixed, but remember extra work and changes into the CD period will have to be paid for.

Design is about making decisions and choices. If someone brings you one design, they are offering no choice and no decision making process.

If this is some famous architect branding his work with a cookie cutter and you are acting as his patron saint, then great. However most architects are a service professionals. Imagine a chef creating a custom meal for you and your family, and NOT a waiter talking your order off a menu.

1. I listen, interpet and generate alternates to consider.

2. The initinal product or "concept sketches" will be three basic different ideas, with a couple of variants on each (freehand on tracing paper). we sit down, throw a few schemes out (while the owners is screaming; YOU ARE NOT LISTENING TO US), combine a few more and meet again with it drafted out on Autocad or a refined hand drawing. We are still in the first phase.

I try to remember that the owner is asking for help defining the problem and solving the design problem (even when the owner says; we know exactly what we want).

If there was no problem, there would be no work, and a draftsperson could just do it.

Tell the architect to come back with three to six rough floor plans (not perfect, just ideas), you are right to start with the floor plans, but someone (the architect) should be steering the ship towards friendly massing and final looks in the back of his head, and at all times.

I hope this helps.

I'm not registered in Kentucky, good luck.

His charges were something like this...
Architect: 16 hours at $70/hour ..........................$1150)
Design guy ( planning ) 72 hours at $45/hr..........$3240
Over head: .................................................. ........$2300
Profit at 10%: .................................................. ....$650
Total:............................................ ............$7200 ( approx )

The problem is....we are still no where near the end of the drawing phase and we already have the invoice for $7500....Where would this end ?

[yasir]

Originally Posted by kach22i

The more time spent in preliminary design, the more pressure to do skimpy bare bones CD's.

Care to explain ?
Thanks

[javadog]

$70/hr for an architect in my neck of the woods is dirt cheap. I am used to seeing $125 or more.

I'd suggest you have this conversation with your architect, not us. You should have had some understanding of the process at the beginning. If not, get with him and work it out.

I'd get happy with the concept sketches before any sort of detail designs or renderings were done. No point in going down a dead end.

All of my experience with architects and owners "who know what they want" leads me to the following observation. An architect's job is to give the owner something that he needs and makes him happy in the end, not what he asks for in the beginning. I haven't met an owner yet that had any sort of good ideas on layout. A good architect will show an owner lots of things he'd never figure out on his own and avoid all of the fruitless ideas that go nowhere.

If this project were mine, I'd figure that I owe the guy what's on the bill. It's too late to negotiate the price on what's already been done.

JR

[javadog]

Originally Posted by yasir

Care to explain ?
Thanks

If the end price is fixed, the more money and time you spend on the first phase, the less money and time you'll have to spend on the last phase.

JR

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by yasir

Care to explain ?
Thanks

EXAMPLE:
I've had clients ask for all sorts of renderings and models which were not in the contract. Yes, same people who know exactly what they want. I told them show me the money, they said let's work it out. In lieu of putting the project on computer I hand drafted on 11x17 photocopies from their original prints they had.

I was able to put more time in design, and less into CD's because they cared about understanding the design and having the house right more than the paper I produced. We were only able to pull this off because the builder and I had done 20 projects together already and worked as a team.

math: 300,000 x .07 = $21,000

21,000/50 (approx rate) = 420 hours

He has approx. 420 hours to get the job done, use up half on design (210 hours) and you have another 210 hours to do the drawings and put out all the fires during construction.

Now if preliminary design/concept design is done, the total so far would be 21k x .15 = $3,150


Ask him why he has invoiced you for approx double agreeded, and let him know you are not happy with the concept so far. You might pay him half and get him to do more work. Or you could see him in small claims court so you can tell your side of the story to a judge.

[dad911]

Originally Posted by yasir

His charges were something like this...
Architect: 16 hours at $70/hour ..........................$1150)
Design guy ( planning ) 72 hours at $45/hr..........$3240
Over head: .................................................. ........$2300
Profit at 10%: .................................................. ....$650
Total:............................................ ............$7200 ( approx )

The problem is....we are still no where near the end of the drawing phase and we already have the invoice for $7500....Where would this end ?

Was the work constructive towards the end goal? If those 72 design hours were field measurements, and putting your existing house in scale, etc, then it could be money well spent. If the hours were spent designing without your input, in a different direction than you want to go, pull the plug, or have a major sit-down with him at this juncture.

While the hourly prices seem fair at first glance, he is effectively raising them by adding overhead & profit.

You are really paying an average of $7500/88hours = $85/hour.

I pay alot of professionals hourly....lawyers, engineers & architects. Never been billed this way, adding overhead and profit. They build it into their base hourly fee. How was overhead calculated? % of total bill?

How was this quoted originally? It seems he is using %of total, profit, expense, hourly, whatever is highest.....

kach22i - Good info. Have you ever seen hourly + overhead + profit billing?

[jorian]

Fixed price contract.

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by dad911

kach22i - Good info. Have you ever seen hourly + overhead + profit billing?

Cost Plus I've seen for General Contractor or Construction Manager fees.

Profit?

What's that?

If he works out of his house and does all the work himself it's all profit. Assuming overhead is his choice, not yours.

Strange bill, does not mean he does not know what he's doing.

I think he is a better business man than me, he has figured out a way to make money as an architect.

EDIT:
Lot's of Cost-Plus-a-Fee contracts with architects using a Google Search.

I've never used one, it's frak'n residential for gosh sakes.

http://www.google.com/search?pz=1&ned=us&hl=en&q=cost+plus+contract+architect&btnmeta%3Dsearch%3Dsearch=Search+the+Web

[yasir]

Thanks a lot guys..
Anyways,i had told the architect from the get go that the budget should be under $300,000 and i guess he calculated all his fees from there..
Last night told him not to make any more drawings until he sits down with the builder to see what the rough estimate would be ..once we know the cost is with in the budget,then i will go ahead and give him a green light for further 3-D drawings..
Bottom line is,i need to tell him i don't want to do a % of the total cost as that could be skewed...Fixed contract is what he is going to get
Please keep the suggestions coming.
Thanks

[Steve W]

Make sure you select a good architect based on experience, reputation, and completed projects. There are a lot of inexperienced people out there that pretend to be all this and that, and may try to dazzle you with cute renderings, but don't really have a clue of structural engineering, construction methods, and how to design plans that will glide though the approval process and plan check, and if they can't get you the permit, they are nothing more than a draftsman and that is all he is worth. Without that the delays will frustrate you, and the construction problems, continual professional consultations, and change orders can cost you 2-5 times or more of what you spent on the architect. Ask the counter guys at plan check in your city what their experience has been with a particular architect or engineer - their feedback will be very enlightening.

[Zeke]

I don't like what I see here. If the design is not to your liking and he was not cleared to go in the direction that he went, I'd agree to pay the bill when the design is approved, not shoved down your throat.

He should have shown you preliminary workups in a CAD program before committing to a more detailed plan. He should also be able to to design around your budget and give you a budget breakdown along with the concepts.

...........................

There seems to be a difference in opinion here about the observation of construction and how much the architect should be paid and be involved. I've always heard that if you have a strong architect and a strong builder, there will be a clash. Not that having the opposite would be a good thing. But, it would be nice to know that one or the other can give some ground. A strong builder can overcome architectural problems thru shear experience. And, there will be problems. If there is some fee left in the agreement for construction observation, make sure the architect has agreed to provide modified drawings as needed.

On my last big job, we ran into unknown and concealed problems. Half of those were the result of the engineer not surveying the existing home thoroughly. For instance, his drawings showed and were dependent on a concrete footing that was never there. When demolition started and he saw the omission, he corrected his plans and charged for that. Right there, I blew my top at the guy and told him that I wouldn't work with his kind. Didn't matter as he continued to "find" problems and amend his plans and refile them with the city.

The thing is, some of these changes affected the design and involved the architect who had to revise his drawings to fit the engineering changes. Since he was the one to refer the engineer, he went soft on his rework.

The very first day I had the plans, I removed the staples and regrouped the sheets. I placed each engineering sheet under each floor's plan view and found things that didn't line up or were completely outside of the walls! I did this over a glass table with a halogen light below. Then, I lined up the floors of each set to find even more errors.

When you get you plans, don't be so quick to dig.

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by milt

For instance, his drawings showed and were dependent on a concrete footing that was never there.

I left my X-Ray glasses at the last office I worked at.

Contractors charge more for the unknown and changes, so do architects. Such is the risk to the owner of an existing building.

What has happened in the past is I have not charged for my extra time if it is with in reason, most small jobs will have an extra day's worth of unexpected changes to them, I build it into the price.

The General Contractor may waive his time to solve the problem and not mark up the new work.

For example we had to add helical piers to a foundation because of poor soil (foundation inspector caught it - permits are a good thing) after the owner insisted the soil was great from the start of the project - it's baby poop (soil testers exact words). I found the lowest cost soil tester and helical pier contractor - no reward other than a happy client.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by kach22i

I left my X-Ray glasses at the last office I worked at.

Contractors charge more for the unknown and changes, so do architects. Such is the risk to the owner of an existing building.

The footing that was shown could have been seen from any foundation vent with a flashlight. It simply wasn't there. There were piers on pads, so even a cursory look would have seen the light coming from the vents on the opposite wall past the piers.

The thing is, the engineer told the owner he CRAWLED under there. And then he had to balls to tell me he crawled under. I knew that was a bald face lie, told him so and told him to not ever get within striking distance of me. I don't take being lied to very well at all. In fact, one lie and you're out of my life forever.

This was the poorest performance of any licensed person I have ever dealt with. Then, to come back with an invoice on top of the lie was even more incredible. I know now why some people get so aggravated that they end up being charged with assault.

I could still throw that guy off the roof.

Such is the risk to the owner of an existing building" That is really a poor statement.

[javadog]

You CAN discover almost everything, if the client wants to spend enough money, up front. Few do. Hopefully they are realistic and understand that if they didn't spend tons of money on the site investigation prior to the design, unforseen things will be dealt with in a sensible manner.

I don't pad my bid for "unknown items" but I also don't ream the owner for change orders. In fact, I hate change orders. I probably do a little more investigation during the bid process than just about anybody you know.

JR