Piano questions

[89911]

I am in the market for a new piano. I currently own a hand me down 50 year old that my parents gave me for my kids to play. Currently, I have two that play, my 13 yo son and 10 yo daughter. My son is turning the corner and is moving up to ragtime and classical. His dedication is showing rapidly after playing for 5 years. The question I have is: Is it worth it to move into a baby grand piano rather then an upright? My house can handle the size of a baby grand, I'm just wondering from those that play (or have played) whether it is a dramatic change in sound and playing action. I just came across a 20 yo Kawai baby grand on Craigslist that is selling for about $3k and need to make a decision fast or it may be gone. For comparison, I mid level Yamaha or Kawai upright new will cost $4-7 thousand. Thanks.

[M.D. Holloway]

I understand your need for new but you can get a really nice stand-up for 1K local. I have even seen very nice baby grands for 5K which is a steal.

[M.D. Holloway]

oh ya, both ours play - we have a stand-up but they are instructed on a baby grand. The richness of the baby grand is noticable but for their needs a nice stand up is fine. If it was up to me and I had the money and space I would go with the baby grand.

[piscator]

89911,

I'm no expert on the piano market, but I do play, my daughters play and I have purchased a few.

Ironically, my piano tech is coming to do a tuning tomorrow, so I'll ask him about your Kawai. I suspect he'll tell me that you don't need to 'jump' at a 20 year old Kawai. There are usually plenty of good Asian pianos out there.

A piano is not like a car, individual instruments of the same make and model will sound just a bit different. It's the SOUND that you need to be pleased with, so make sure your son and daughter play the instrument. Even a beginner can hear what they like.

That said, I always get a better player than myself to try the instrument and offer a dispassionate opinion. This also gives me a chance to LISTEN to the piano.

I would NEVER buy a piano until a tech checked it out. While it's unusual for anything major to go wrong, it's good to know in advance if you'll need hammers or action work. My 1929 M only needed a tuning. The only major concern is the soundboard. A severely neglected instrument may have a soundboard that has lost it's crown or warped. If so, it will never sound the way it did when it left the factory. Re-crowning a soundboard usually costs more than the value of the instrument, so it's worth having a tech check this out.

Please steer away from 'baby grands'. A 5' 0" - 5' 2" baby grand' has a shorter box (string length) than a full upright. The shortened string length in the lower register is a compromise design that doesn't work that well in practice. It's the box and strings that make the sound. 'Baby grands' sacrifice dynamics in the lower register and lose 'character' on the top, because the shorter bottom strings alter the harmonics. Some people may like the 'thinner' sound, but I don't know any accomplished players who PREFER a 'baby grand'. Billy Joel wrote a song titled 'Baby Grand' but he doesn't play one! 'Baby grands' are really a compromise instrument for apartment dwellers and folks mostly interested in 'the look'. A good quality full upright will sound better and cost less.

Steinway makes a plain, but handsome, upright that is universal in music schools. They built so many that they are usually available on the used market in your price range. Don't be afraid of a used piano. Pianos are more robust than most people think and if it's a quality instrument and the soundboard is good, a piano tech can fix anything.

If you have the room for 'Baby Grand' you probably have the room for a 'Medium Grand' -- the difference is only 4". Medium Grands often cost the sasme as 'baby grand' because they don't command the 'decorator' premium. I'd strongly recommend a medium grand 5' 4" or larger. Mine is 5' 6" and I personally wouldn't want anything smaller. A medium grand will have the 'correct' string lengths in the lower register. The timbral difference between a medium grand and a 'baby grand' is significant. A medium grand will have all the sound you could ever want and become an heirloom instrument.

Find out the box length of the Kawai, if it's a 'baby grand' 5'0 to 5'2" -- I'd pass it by.

Lastly, what is the piano you have currently? You may have a 'diamond in the rough' that could be improved considerably. Age doesn't mean anything -- my piano was built in Jan 1929 -- before the crash :-)

I don't want to bore you with endless rambling, I'll ask my piano tech about Kawais and report back.

piscator

[89911]

Thanks all. I do have a qualified tuner, appraiser that will look at the piano before a seriously consider it. The piano I currently use is not worth much at all and has no serious value. The points against baby grand piano's are interesting and seem to have merit. We have tried out several "concert" sized uprights (48" to 50" height) that produce a nice sound and have yet to listen to this piano. At this store, my son also tried out a Yamaha full sized grand that cost $60,000. The sound and volume was incredible.

[Zeke]

Be picky. I have a baby grand in tune and it sounds like crap. But, I guess that depends on what kind of music is played and what the player wants. I tend to like blues and this piano has no soul at all. It would take a very accomplished player to eke out the sound. Too much work.

OTOH, I bought an old upright for the grandkids. That thing is so loud that it can't be tamed.

Be picky.

[piscator]

If I sounded overly harsh toward 'baby grands' I apologize, but I have several friends who were mislead into buying them. Baby grands were created to save space, but an upright is far more space efficient and the vertical box can be the same length as a full grand. As Milt mentions, large uprights can sound just great.

To counter my negativity, let me to mention that I've 'fallen in love' with an awful lot of pianos and brand, price, size, & age had almost NOTHING to do with how much I enjoyed them.

My teacher's 1950's Baldwin grand is one of the best pianos I've played. My buddy's Yamaha doesn't do anything wrong and I like it a lot. My Steinway has a personality I love, but I wouldn't claim it's a hugely superior piano. Famous makers produce wonderful instruments, but I've played 'six figure' Steinways at the showroom that didn't 'speak to me'. It's personal taste. My mother-in-law's 40 year old, Korean spinet has a fascinating voice. I've spent whole days playing that piano and I doubt it's worth $1,000. My family has an early Mason & Hamlin console that has nice action and majestic tone, it was appraised at $2,000. I love all of these pianos.

One important note: "don't sell beginning pianists short!" They need a quality instrument, maybe more than a professional. That doesn't mean "expensive" but it does mean SERVICED properly. A piano with a funky action, or notes that ring and won't hold tune is very aggravating to a beginner.

FUNNY STORY TIME:

My neighbor is a jazz bassist who has played with his pianist partner for decades. Many years back, the duo was hired by a small town in central Canada to do a 'jazz lecture/performance'.

They flew in the night before the gig and were greeted by the head of the town's 'art's committee'. He invited them to dinner, but they asked to see the venue first. Their host drove them to the town's 'community room' where they discovered that HALF the notes on the piano wouldn't sound -- AT ALL!

For a duo that's a tough problem to compensate for.

Apparently, no-one ever played this piano and no-one had thought to check it out for the performance. There was no technician available and the nearest substitute piano was a hundred miles away.

Not to fear! These guys are 'old hands' ! They chuckled and simply extended the 'jazz lecture' part of the show. My neighbor did a rather lengthy, extemporaneous, presentation of 'field shouts and hollers' while his partner sat at the piano 'faking it' or sounding 'avarte garde'.

Funny story.

piscator

[dipso]

I have a piano and i play.
My piano is an old upright and sounds terrible. The harp is cracked and you can no longer match lower to upper octaves.
My friend has a beautiful Baldwin ( upright) . Same size.

I would go look at pianos if I was you.
There are some very nice sounding uprights.

A Piano is a great instrument.

[FastCarFan]

About 9 years ago we bought a small grand. My wife is a great piano player. We wanted a small grand & we went to the local Steinway dealer to see what (non-Steinway) pianos they had. We had heard great things about Steinways, but we didn't want to spend that much. I think at that time the cheapest Steinway grand was $26,000.

I am not easily "sold" by salespeople's pitches. But, wow, this guy was good. By the time he was done, with all of his cut-aways & other props showing the construction methods (& comparing it to mass produced Asian pianos), we walked out of there thinking you would be an idiot for buying anything other than a Steinway. Their construction is really quite impressive. They are hand-built in very small numbers, compared to the Asian pianos which are factory built in huge numbers. In a nutshell, the high price of a Steinway is justified.

We still didn't want to pay that much, so we started looking for a used Steinway. My wife spoke with a piano technician & he warned us about used Steinways. He said many people want to have a Steinway for the snob value. Some don't even play piano -- they just want a Steinway as a piece of furniture. But over the years, as something needs to be repaired or maintained, they don't want to pay the relatively high cost of genuine Steinway parts, so they fix it using cheap parts. Or, they simply do not maintain the instrument properly. Over time, it becomes something less than a Steinway. Like putting cheap AutoZone parts in a classic 911 or not maintaining it properly.

As previously recommended, any used piano should be thoroughly checked out before purchase. A PPI, like with a used Porsche.

Interestingly, I think of a Steinway much like I think of a Porsche. Both are worth the $ & can cost a lot to maintain. But both offer true excellence & satisfaction, qualities often lacking in products today.

So what did we buy? We ended up getting a new Boston grand. Boston is a joint-venture project between Steinway & Kawai (sp?). Essentially the piano is designed by Steinway & produced by Kawai. It is not hand-built, so it is significantly less expensive. But the quality & design is very good. You can read all about Boston pianos & where they are used on the Steinway Website.

My wife loves it. She likes the action & responsiveness of the keys & the warmth of the sound. Plus, if we ever want to trade it in on a Steinway they will give us 100% for what we paid for it toward a new Steinway. She is very pleased with her Boston. It sounds & looks beautiful.

[Tishabet]

Originally Posted by FastCarFan

As previously recommended, any used piano should be thoroughly checked out before purchase. A PPI, like with a used Porsche.

Interestingly, I think of a Steinway much like I think of a Porsche. Both are worth the $ & can cost a lot to maintain. But both offer true excellence & satisfaction, qualities often lacking in products today.

I showed this thread to my wife yesterday... in addition to being wonderwife and working as a commercial banker during the day, she is a piano teacher (currently 16 students) in the evenings. She also has a bachelors in Music and has played for the last 26 years. Her comments were almost exactly what FastCarFan said above.

-Get a PPI (i.e. get to know someone who is at least a tuner or even better a professional restorer and have them check out the piano). A cracked soundboard is the equivalent of bad leakdown numbers on a 911... and can cost as much or more to repair.

-Pianos are like cars... she was a bit incredulous that the Porsche guys were discussing mass-produced Asian pianos.

FYI, she also likes Boston pianos... she once taught for an adult piano "camp" in VT which had 25 of them.

[piscator]

fastcarfan,

Congratulations! I think your story is a great example. I tried several Boston pianos at a Steinway showroom and found them just wonderful. Of the medium grands on the floor that day, I thought the Boston sounded => than the Steinways. Sales hype doesn't make a piano sound pleasing, we just need to trust our ears.

When I traded in my 'barrelhouse' 1935 upright' the only piano brand I didn't want was Steinway. Nothing wrong with Steinway, but it wasn't my image of myself. I wanted an OLD piano, but not a prestigious piano. I really wanted my teacher's Baldwin, but she wasn't ready to give it up. I also loved a Chickering I'd found, but it needed parts that were difficult to come by.

In my search, I came upon a piano that spent 70 years in hotel service. The mahogany case was severely marred from decades of handling. It was not a pretty piano. I sat down to play and found the keyboard action was regulated perfectly. Opening the case, I discovered fairly new hammers. This piano had been well maintained, but was cosmetically very rough. That's how I ended up with a 1929 Steinway. I loved the piano, not the maker.

Choosing a piano, SOUND is the critical factor, but subjective factors are also important. I wanted a older piano with 'a tale to tell' -- it doesn't improve the timbre but it adds to my enjoyment in playing. I pay a price for that in highter maintenance. Other people may gain confidence from knowing a piano is new and that's perfectly legitimate.

BTW: I think you're absolutely right that owning an older Steinway (or Mason & Hamlin, Chickering, etc) is a bit like owning an older Porsche. They require some love and tweaking to get the best out of them. But playing one that you love is an awesome experience. The incredible tone of a particular 1930's Steinway 'Music Room Grand' that I played 20 years ago still rings in my head.

I don't want to blow that out of proportion, though. They DO make pianos just a well now as they did 'back in the day'. And, modern pianos benefit from all the tremendous advances in materials science, adhesives and coatings. They're tighter, less affected by humidity, sound-boards are stronger, etc. etc.

I don't entirely agree with your wife's piano tech. I've used 'non-factory' parts in my Steinway, but I wouldn't describe them as "cheap autozone". My tech and I decided on German hammer replacements because we were striving for a particular tone. I seem to recall that certain Asian hammers were more expensive. Also, the Steinway factory in Queens has a deserved reputation for being.... aaah.... what's the word?... a bit screwy? Getting parts is not always so straightforward.

I don't know this for certain, but I seriously doubt that any available parts would make your Steinway less desirable or 'turn it into a ricer' For one thing, there's just so few parts that have any likelihood of replacement -- felt hammers, felt dampers, maybe strings. Major overhauls requiring things like sound boards and pin blocks are pretty rare.

I've definitely met a few Steinway snobs who couldn't find middle C. Generally, I love them! They offer a nice treat for me to play while visiting! It's true though that many 'furniture buyers' neglect regular tuning. I'm guilty of that too, at times. It doesn't lead to a 'ricer' engine replacement though, there's no engine.

I enjoyed your comments! You made a great decision on the Boston. I always thought it was a real 'sleeper' -- a Steinway with a different label. Tone is subjective, but I felt they succeeded in acheiving a Steinway tone instead of adopting a Kawai/Yamaha tone. Enjoy it!

piscator

[FastCarFan]

Originally Posted by piscator

I don't entirely agree with your wife's piano tech. I've used 'non-factory' parts in my Steinway, but I wouldn't describe them as "cheap autozone". My tech and I decided on German hammer replacements because we were striving for a particular tone. I seem to recall that certain Asian hammers were more expensive. Also, the Steinway factory in Queens has a deserved reputation for being.... aaah.... what's the word?... a bit screwy? Getting parts is not always so straightforward.

I don't know this for certain, but I seriously doubt that any available parts would make your Steinway less desirable or 'turn it into a ricer' For one thing, there's just so few parts that have any likelihood of replacement -- felt hammers, felt dampers, maybe strings. Major overhauls requiring things like sound boards and pin blocks are pretty rare.

Sorry, but I didn't mean to imply that all non-Steinway parts are cheap, rather that some people are more interested in saving $ on parts than maintaining/fixing the piano properly.

The key point is, just because it says Steinway on it doesn't mean it has been maintained well. Thus the recommendation to get a PPI.

[Shuie]

I went through this pretty recently while looking for a starter piano for my son. I ended up getting a really great deal on a US Market '67 Yamaha M2 w/bench ($1800). It's a beautiful sounding instrument. If I were trading up I'd look for a used Yamaha U2 next. You should be able to find a nice U2 these days for ~$3k.

If you are near a University with a large music school you can usually get great deals on the pianos they trade back in every year.

Steinway, or not, if it didn't have great tone, I wouldn't want it for a player. I grew up with a pre-war Steinway in my house. It's long gone, and I don't think I could ever justify owning it myself, but if you have the means you can find good deals on these on the used market as well. Just get it checked out like everyone has mentioned.

[FastCarFan]

Fastcarfan's wife here. 2 short comments:

1-Although a rather accomplished pianist with fine classical training, I have often felt that a Steinway is "too much piano" for me- meaning, it feels like work to play it, despite the strength of my hands. I was so pleasantly surprised to find how much I loved the Boston, compared to almost any Steinway I have played. The warm, expressive tone, and responsiveness of the keys is rewarding. I have often said it is like "water"- so fluid and easy to play, yet satisfying. I was initially against the idea of any hybrid, which Boston is (Kawai/Steinway), and especially since it had only been around for a few years at the time- a new name on the scene. But, it won me over, instantly.

2-Also, to clarify, when researching pianos to buy, I spoke to the piano technicians at the Oberlin Conservatory piano shop, among other places. (Oberlin is 1 of the finest college music programs in the country- they have their own shop to service the 200 some pianos they have on campus.) They warned me about how difficult it is to find a good used Steinway that has been properly repaired.

My 2c, for what it is worth.

[89911]

I like these slippery slope discussions on piano's. One minute I'm looking for a step up piano from my parents hand me down Jantzen. The next minute I'm trying to figure out where I can fit a full grand Steinway in my house! It is a buyers market on piano's right now. On Craigslist, at least 2-4 show up a day on average. I think my first choice for size and sound would be full size (50" height) Kawai or Yamaha upright. There is just too many out there to buy one new, as long as your patient. My children are not at the level yet that they even really care, except possible my son. I am the one more interested because I like what I hear, especially from a better piano. I do have a very qualified tuner/repairman that will check anything out I'm interested in. He is the one actually telling me that this baby grand is a great deal, as long as the piano checks out.

[piscator]

Fastcarfan's wife wrote:

The [Boston's] warm, expressive tone, and responsiveness of the keys is rewarding.

That's exactly how I felt! Wonderful piano! They were just starting the Boston line when I bought my piano. To be honest, I couldn't afford one. I purchased my model "M" for half the cost of the comparable Boston. It was a unique situation. I didn't buy it to resell, but it's value tripled once I refinished the case.

That's an interesting comment on Steinway actions. The Steinways I've encountered that felt like 'driving a truck' were new pianos in the showroom and usually the larger models. Two others were privately owned concert grands that got very little play. Don't know if I'm correct, but I always chalked it up to size or a need to work in a bit.

Steinways may have somewhat stiffer actions, but the one's I know, that get played regularly, don't seem much different than my friend's Yamaha. They're all "M"'s though. I once played a magnificent model "A" that had such a light action I found it hard to believe. I doubt that's typical of a Parlor Grand with a 6' 2" box -- but that piano was astonishing.

FastCarFan,

No need to apologize, I agree with you. I suspect the majority of Steinway owners are non-players who tend to skimp on tunings and repairs. There's probably plenty of Yamaha owners who fall into that category as well.

My piano technician comes by four times a year. Because of the humidity in my area we struggle a bit with leather and felt to get the tone we want. I'm fortunate that my tech played professionally for many years and is talented at 'tweaking'.

I certainly agree with your main point -- just because it says "Steinway" on the case doesn't mean anything about the piano's condition. As we all agreed, there's no substitute for a thorough 'PPI'.

Still, I really do think technicians (whether from Oberlin or elsewhere) have a tendency to pick on Steinway owners. It's the "more money than brains" comment you hear applied to many high-end products. My tech tells a story about one 'Steinway Snob' who is honest enough about it, that she removed the harp and strings, so she could store linens in her grand piano!

I'm pretty sure that most of the pianos sold in America are purchased by casual players and typically under-serviced. I doubt it's significantly harder to find a decent 'pre-owned' Steinway than any other brand. Pianos don't melt.

If service history were so critical, I'd expect every piano tech to recommend Bosendorfer. The few Bosendorfer owners I've met seemed like fanatics!

Shuie,

I share your enthusiam for Yamaha. Your son is lucky to have such a nice instrument to grow into. I don't know Yamaha's specific models, but I enjoyed every one that I've played. I often walk in on my neighbor, just to play his Yamaha. I guess I'm not too polite, since it forces the kids to turn off the TV and retreat into the kitchen. They haven't thrown me out though... yet!

I agree that music schools and universities can be an excellent source for reasonably priced pianos. They may be a little 'rough around the edges' but are usually well maintained.

As you say, the most important thing is tone. It really doesn't matter what the brand is.

piscator

[89911]

Decided to walk on the baby grand. Some of it was because of the very good advice I got here. Another, because it would cause a large rearrangement of our house to fit one it. We have looked at a Baldwin Hamilton upright. Any opinions?

[piscator]

89911,

My tech was here today and I asked him about your Kawai. Actually, we spent the afternoon together discussing the artistic 'riddles of the universe'.

In any case, he's a fan of new pianos, likes Kawai and also feels the late 60's early 70's Kawai are 'note-worthy'.

He tunes a lot of university pianos and gave high praise to the Yamaha uprights. His feeling was that recent Yamaha uprights have surpassed the Steinway uprights that I enjoyed years ago. Based on that, you might want to investigate music school sales of Yamaha uprights.

Good luck in your search!

piscator

[89911]

Had the piano delivered last night. The details are it is a Kawai US5F 50" upright made in 1993. It was purchased used from Japan, imported, and then bought by me from a place in Wisconson (Jim Laab's, who were excellent) after seeing in on Ebay. I was taking a leap of faith, but everything turned out fine. The Piano appears absolutely brand new! I will have my tuner come over in a week or two to tune it again, but they did before delivery and it sounds great. Thanks for your help, I think this was a better choice then a baby grand.