Anyone here know anything about Cali labor law?

Joeaksa · 07-01-2009, 04:39 PM

Friend of mine is having some problems and thought I would see if anyone on the list has any ideas with this.

She works in SoCal and has been with the company about 15 months. They give everyone in the company a weeks vacation per year. Everyone at the office gets this time off no matter what. Just put in for it and poof you are at home, on the beach or where-ever you want to be and NOT work.

My friend is a pilot and she is on duty 357 days a year, 24/7. They call and she heads for the airport, and no "time off" so to speak. That's the life we put up with as pilots.

Now she put in for vacation and was told "lets see" as we might have a flight then. Excuse me? The time period she is asking for is next summer, as in ONE YEAR away!

Does anyone know California labor law and how it deals with vacations? This person is being told that she might have to change everything "if a flight pops up" but she simply cannot do this. The tickets have been purchased for all the events she wants to attend (its a sports event with her family that is very important to them) and so on, so moving the dates around is not going to work. Also they are now telling her that the time she takes off needs to be "important, and not a day or two at the beach!"

There are contract pilots around who provide companies a pilot during vacation and training times. We just used one last week when my copilot got married.

Any insight on this? Can they really tell someone what they can take vacation for and force them to take the time on the companies schedule in California?

Thx,

Joe A

Porsche-O-Phile · Porsche-O-Phile's Garage

Sending you a PM...

fingpilot · 07-01-2009, 04:49 PM

All I know, Joe is that I have had that exact thing happen to me several employers ago.

1). There is a labor commisioner that is the final say. She needs to find that office and they can be anonymous.

2). California is an 'At Will' state. Meaning the employee serves at the 'will' of the employer. I know how bad that sounds, and lots of attorneys are willing to take anything on.

In her case, if she rocks the boat, she'll be replaced. If she 'waits and sees', she will be disappointed. If she is discharged (for almost any reason), she does have to be paid for accrued vacation time. And THAT is whatever the employer says it was, unless in writing.

Rotsa Ruck.

Joeaksa · 07-01-2009, 05:03 PM

Just wanted to add something. This is a private flight department, not an airline.

tabs · 07-01-2009, 05:14 PM

What is the diff?

Joeaksa · 07-01-2009, 05:17 PM

Tabs,

Airlines and such are regulated by the Railroad Act, and under a way different set of laws in many areas.

Private flight departments are just that, we have nothing to do with an airline and hopefully in a better set of laws in this area.

Joe

stomachmonkey · 07-01-2009, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joeaksa

Just wanted to add something. This is a private flight department, not an airline.

Figured that. If an Airline there'd be a union involved.

I don't know much about CA law but it does sound like your friend is getting the treatment.

They can't schedule around her a year out?

Something definitely does not smell right.

This is the kind of stuff that companies will pull when they want to get rid of you but need you to quit instead of being fired.

Joeaksa · 07-01-2009, 05:28 PM

Problem is that it appears that they are doing it to all the pilots, not just one.

One other pilot put in for vacation in late July. He gave them 5 months notice. Now they are telling him that there is a trip on the day he was supposed to start his vacation, so he needs to move the departure date by 4 days! All the rest of the family have now scheduled their vacation to match and cannot change it at this late date.

Another pilot put in for time off in early October. Now being told that there is a trip until the 9th and that was the first day off. Again this was asked for 5 months ago.

The company is saying that "vacation needs to be taken for something important and not just a day at the beach!" Silly me, I always thought that employees could take vacation for what THEY wanted and not the company!

RPKESQ · 07-01-2009, 08:21 PM

Vacation time is a benefit, not a legal requirement. Apart from the length of a working day and how many breaks during a day, she is SOL as far as legality is concerned. Even if it was listed as a benefit on the job description.

Noah930 · Noah930's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by RPKESQ

Vacation time is a benefit, not a legal requirement. Apart from the length of a working day and how many breaks during a day, she is SOL as far as legality is concerned. Even if it was listed as a benefit on the job description.

I would imagine that this type of thing (labor law) will vary, state by state. Are you certain that this is what the law stipulates in California? (Not being argumentative--just noted that you don't list a California location.)

If vacation is considered a benefit, is it legal for an employer to revoke such benefit, even if it's in a mutually agreed upon contract? Isn't there some sort of breach of contract if the employer reneges on its contractual obligations?

I'd certainly not work for such a shady employer. Effectively, if you play by the employer's rules, there is no such benefit of vacation. There's certainly no respect for the employees.

Joeaksa · 07-02-2009, 05:23 AM

Anyone else have any input on this? Have never heard that vacation is a benefit and once its "given to you" not sure how it can be taken back or stopped.

widebody911 · widebody911's Garage

This anecdote doesn't help in your situation, but we were forced to take a week (5 days) of vacation time in April, and will have to take another 8 forced days in December. This is all of the vacation (and then some) that I accrue in a year. Ain't squat I can do about it. Then they wanted us to take more if we had it on the books. My boss actually went person-to-person trying to persuade people to commit to more days off (I'm sure that directive came down from his boss); when he got to me, I told him it wasn't possible - after the forced days, I had none left. He suggested I borrow against next years' accrual...

What pisses me off about it (other than effectively having no vacation time) is that it's just a bookkeeping trick to make the numbers look good.

cgarr · cgarr's Garage

What happens if she calls in sick? Our Vacation is a benefit here just like sick days, that is if you get paid for it.

Joeaksa · 07-02-2009, 06:28 AM

Thom,

So if you wanted to take vacation at ANY other time period than what the company suggested it was not allowed? There is no way that I would take "next years time off" on this.

If she called in sick for the time period that she had already asked for vacation, doubt that she would have a job when she returned. California is a "right to work" state...

RPKESQ · 07-02-2009, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noah930

I would imagine that this type of thing (labor law) will vary, state by state. Are you certain that this is what the law stipulates in California? (Not being argumentative--just noted that you don't list a California location.)

If vacation is considered a benefit, is it legal for an employer to revoke such benefit, even if it's in a mutually agreed upon contract? Isn't there some sort of breach of contract if the employer reneges on its contractual obligations?

I'd certainly not work for such a shady employer. Effectively, if you play by the employer's rules, there is no such benefit of vacation. There's certainly no respect for the employees.

I live in CA about half the year on average. I have hired and fired many times all within CA labor law limits. Paid vacations are not a work requirement, they are at the sole decision of the employer as to when and how long they are to be granted.

fingpilot · 07-02-2009, 08:23 AM

"At will." The employers' will, not the employees' will.

Superman · 07-02-2009, 08:29 AM

I know of no regulation that limits the employer's purview on this. "Market forces" provide all the clout she has. None.

campbellcj · 09:45 PM

I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV, but I do hire, manage and fire people in California. As stated above, paid vacation is a benefit not a right. However, once there is a written agreement between parties that vacation is granted, it accrues and becomes an asset of the employee per the agreed-upon formula. For instance, if the employee terminates for just about any reason, unused but accrued vacation has to be paid out. Reneging on that is just asking for a labor board complaint or lawsuit that the employer very likely will lose, given the pro-worker politics in this state. Your best case scenario is a big pile of attorney bills and a settlement. Not worth the risk.

That being said, employers have a lot of leeway in dictating when vacation can and cannot be used by employees, but again that 'should' be clearly stated in a policy or employee handbook. For instance we ask for reasonable advance notice and require supervisor and top-management approval, since we are a small company where absence can really impact things negatively.

Also, California is an 'at-will' employment state, as mentioned above, meaning that the terms or continuation of employment can be changed at any time without notice (unless there is a contract in force to the contrary.) However, if the employee has earned/accrued benefits then those still belong to him/her even if they stop accruing more at some point.

Here are links to the actual codes (admittedly I hire real lawyers to deal with this stuff as this is a socialist state that heavily favors workers over employers, and we have a litigious culture to boot):

California Labor Code

Overtime exemptions

Joeaksa · 07-03-2009, 04:55 AM

Chris,

Thanks much and that clarifies it a lot.

Rot 911 · 07-03-2009, 06:48 AM

Joe, there is the "law" and then there is reality. Yes leave is a benefit, but how it is taken is probably spelled out in the employment manual. She can push the issue and probably get her leave time, but as you and I know commercial pilots are a dime a dozen and unless they really like her she will be looking for another job.

If I were her, and she has built up her flight hours, I would start looking for that job now. If she is still at the bottom of the pecking order she is just going to have to suck it up and drive on.