Colgan says Renslow should never have been flying. Lied about failing 5 check rides.


http://news.aol.com/article/airline-says-pilot-marvin-renslow-should/607790


Exec Says Pilot Should Not Have Flown

Captain in Crash That Killed 50 Had Failed Five Pilot Tests

An airline executive whose plane crashed earlier this year said although the pilot was "a fine man by all accounts," had the airline "known what we know now ... he would not have been in that seat."
Colgan Air Flight 3407 crashed near Buffalo, N.Y., on Feb. 12, killing all 49 on the plane and one person on the ground.

We all want Sullenburg as our pilot, not some yahoo like Colgan.

The phrase 'Ya gets what ya pay for' comes to mind.

+1

Airlines have been bottom feeding for pilots for the longest time (especially regionals). They're reaping what they sow.

This is a direct result of the ridiculously low fares that are being charged. Airlines forced to compete at the bottom-of-the-barrel prices being charged today have to skimp on everything - including pilot salaries.

Yep...pax want cheap fares. They want safety, all the way until the point where it costs an extra $10 a ticket.

Sadly, SJS'ers were ,and will be, lining up for those jobs at the same rates "just to get their foot in the door". They are developing a precedent for low wages because they don't want to sacrifice a few years to flight instruction, freight, banner towing etc. I'm sure there are plenty of guys like me (3500tt+, gobs of multi ,600 tpic, ) who refuse to work for that BS.

Yep and very happy that in another 5-7 years I will retire from this rat race called "making a living in aviation" and restore antique airplanes for fun!

The pilot lived here in the Tampa area and had/has teenage kids and a wife. Must be hard to read this about your dad being responsible for killing 49 people. When it happened the local news were all over how he was a great guy and wonderful dad.

Paul,

Thats the responsibility that every pilot takes with them every time they strap into the airplane.

Personally it does not bother me in the least. My focus is getting one person safely back on the ground and that person is me. As I am usually the first to hit (very front seat in the jet) if I get on the ground safely, then everyone behind me should be in the same situation.

Sorry it did not turn out better with the airplane in Buffalo...

Joe A

I know the feeling... I've got about 2700TT and just under 1000 multi myself. I just re-upped my CFI hoping to get some time instructing just to keep myself involved/busy but the industry is (like most others) at a total standstill out here. No hiring, no movement, very few students. I haven't seen it this bad since right after 9/11. Actually I think now is even worse than it was post-9/11, and post-9/11 was pretty sucky.

I have to admit the thought of getting into a "shiny jet" has some appeal (especially as I've been sitting around without a real income for almost a year now) but OTOH I'm at an age now where the "SJS" won't sufficiently entice me to sit in the right seat looking at CRTs and making radio calls for 10+ years at $15 an hour or whatever. No thanks. I can make more than that flying C172s instructing (assuming the economy starts recovering and people start flying more again).

Yeah, the flying is fun and I miss it, but for the same money as a right-seat regional guy I'd rather go back to flying my beat-up PA31s and Be99s - at least I was actually FLYING those - by hand, in actual IMC, day-in and day-out. I enjoyed the hell out of that job even if the schedules/salary/layovers/benefits all sucked.

your right... I sent an app to just about everything I have found and figured I would sort out the peices.. not a peep. :(

Actually the market is moving A LOT more than it was 3-6 months ago. Friend of mine doing contract work sat for 4 months during this time period as there was simply nothing available. He has 20,000 TT and types out the wazoo.

Fast forward to a month/six weeks ago and he has three contracts to chose from. He is now in London heading to Cairo then on to Dubai.

Its opening up, slowly but better than it was.

I have a feeling It will be a while till I find work the market has to digest the better qualified..

I couldn't believe my ears when I heard that a commercial jet pilot can make so little. I definitely don't want underpaid folks flying me. I'd be happy to pay more for a ticket. At $20k a year for job requiring such skills, I'm wondering why they don't have a brandy sniffer or tip jar by the cockpit door.

Rick,

One of my old copilots contacted me a couple of years ago. Tried like the dickens to get me to come and fly with him. He was doing contract work flying Boeing 747's. It would have cost me about $9,000 to get type rated on the "whale" as we call it, and thats reasonable. Was actually thinking about it then asked him how much he was getting paid. Very proudly he said $7,000 a month and that burst my balloon because I was making at that time $12k a month flying private jets. We pay our experienced copilots more than he was making as a Captain on the B747 but he is on contract, and not full time with an airline.

Now before everyone gets all excited about this, my cost for recurrent training, and I do this once a year or do not work, was $14-19,000 for a 5 day session in the classroom and sim. Yes, at least $5000 a day to "re-train" and be certified for the same airplane I have been flying for 10 years now.

Then you realize that you have to work off that $14-19k expense, and doing so means that you will spend about 7-8 months a year on the road. Some of the places are nice, like London, Berlin, Moscow and so on, while others like anywhere in India, Saudi, Africa and so on you are taking your life in your hands. I did it for a long time (4+ years) and its a rough life.

One last thing, I am at the twilight in my career, and with around 17,000 hours TT and 5 type ratings. I should be making good money as retirement is right around the corner. I am the "old grey haired fart' in the left seat that they put the new copilots with to learn. Still in the corporate world would want to see you guys making at least $50k to start and frankly after you have some good time in the jet, would like to see $70k a year. Again thats the corporate world, not airline.

Joe A

Agreed, the real exploitation occurs in the regional airlines. Corporate, factional, charter and the like typically pay a lot better - this is market driven and I suspect the result of having to compensate flight crews for being shackled to a pager their entire life (24/7/365 in some cases). I looked into it a few years ago (I had a lead to fly charter in a Lear 35 before I got hired to fly cargo) but that was the deal - I'd have been paid okay, but if the pager went off, I MUST have been at the aircraft within 1 hour, ready to fly. 3AM, holidays, whatever. This severely limits one's options. Can't go off camping for a weekend, can't drive to Phoenix or Vegas for the day, etc. Can't have a beer or a glass of wine with dinner (8 hour "bottle-to-throttle" rule, if the pager goes off after you've had a sip, technically you're illegal). So it's a tradeoff for the guys doing that life. You're never really "off duty" and never really have your life to yourself. But that's what I'd have been paid for. I ultimately decided "not worth it" for the salary and the "privilege" of sitting in the right seat for god-knows-how-long. It was an okay deal, but not a great deal.

The regionals are experts at "carrot dangling" - particularly to the young hotshot guys with the big egos. They all want to be "shiny jet" guys and the airlines know it. So they let 'em have their shiny jet but they pay 'em crap and treat 'em like crap (they whip a lot of those guys VERY hard with respect to their duty schedules and time away from home - I know of a couple where FOs have to buy their own uniforms, charts, etc. - on their $15k-$20k per year salaries) But they get away with it because there's an endless supply of expendable labor in the form of kids with "1000-and-1" (1000 hours T/T and 100 hours multiengine) who want to brag to their buddies about flying an EMB or an RJ, and enjoy an occasional jump seat trip or buddy pass. The airlines are all-too-happy to do this, as it helps them cut costs and perpetuate the "fare wars" which go on every other week.

Naturally in a downturn like this, corporate and charter take a beating (as do the regional and major airlines). Never mind that the businesses that buy corporate jets can own them for very little (they're allowed to deduct the depreciation on the aircraft annually and there are an awful lot of companies who carry a HELL of a lot more tax liability every year than the amortized cost of a jet or two). I know a guy (a former flight student of mine, actually) who brokered an acquisition of a Lear 45 and a King Air for a client of his. Their costs of owning the aircraft are NOTHING except operating costs due to the tax write-offs. It effectively costs this company ZERO to own the aircraft except when they actually use it (fuel, crew cost, maintenance, etc.) But naturally perception is everything and corporate jets are seen as "evil" and "ostentatious" by the idiot masses out there (reference the recent firestorm over GM/Ford/Chrysler CEOs "daring" to show up in DC in their aircraft).

It's truly a screwy industry. I honestly think it's one of the toughest and grittiest industries to make a living in (along with construction of course), but the actual flying part is addictively zen-like. There's nothing like it on earth and I'm a very, very fortunate individual to have been touched by it and be one of the few who's able to do it occasionally (albeit not as much as I'd like or to the extent a lot of the other guys here do).

No kidding. They can charge $20 to carry a bag but won't pay for a top quality flight crew. Nonsense.

If an airline advertised slightly higher prices so they could hire the very best crews, I'd bet a significant % of the population would support that.

Lot and lots of training required to be a top notch pilot. I find it embarrassing that some of them don't even make $100,000.

Just amazing.

The people in yellow vests moving cars around the Hertz parking lot make almost as much as the regional pilot. The Hertz guy has no training and no experience required.

With all that, airline travel is STILL the safest way to get around.

Gotta belive it is true. My instrument instructor one day vanished. Hmmm as an aside ask in casual conversation once in a while how many hours they need for an ATP license. He called a week later and said he got a job with a regional that paid the equivalent of $15,000. He was also working alot of hours loading baggage and taking tickets.

Moses,

The commuter airlines are the worst with this, and believe that the copilot on the Buffalo airplane was getting paid $16,000 a year. Its terrible yet no one seems to be changing it.

Rick,

That is VERY common in the grass roots arena. I know of people going for their private pilot licenses who go through 4-5 instructors as every time they turn around the current one is hired and gone. This results in it costing the student more money to break in a new instructor who has no idea how the student was doing with the previous people. It also means that no instructor stays very long in the business, so they usually do not have very much experience, which results in pilots who are not that good.

I try to never fly commuters...unless it is absolutely required. I prefer to rent a car from the closest major AP and hoof it.

As a pilot I am acutely aware that piloting skills, given certain ability, reside between the ears...most pilot-error accidents can be traced to a relatively small number of contributing factors: lack of rest, trouble at home, birth of a child, buying or selling a home, etc. This would include money woes.

I made 15k a year in 1976 as a river guide...

Maybe some government regulation is needed here. The free market does not appear to be producing the result that everyone on this thread claims to want (passenger airline pilots who are paid a sensible wage).

In general, the airline industry seems like a self destructive one. I read that the industry, at least in the US, has lost money on a cumulative basis since inception. And it certainly has lost a ton of money in the decades since deregulation.

What do you guys say? Can you think of a regulation that would solve the $16K pilot "problem" and that you would support?

they are thinking of raising the entry limits to ATP standards (more hours) which would help with exp., but not with pay...

Some years ago I left an $80,000 a year job to go to a regional to make $18,000 the first year. Of course, I was going to upgrade to CPT in 18 months, fly for 2-3 years as PIC, then get hired by a major, then CPT there after a few more years making the big coin. Six years later I was still an FO at the regional and two years later after upgrading, finally left the airlines for the Fracs where the pay is much better, but the upgrade is still nowhere in sight.

The flying part of the job is awesome, but the industry just plain SUX.... Its amazing what people go through just to fly, like commuting, crash pads, living out of suitcases, unbelievable things... The days of "catch me if you can" are long over...

Absolutely. And internationally we fly only airlines that emphasize quality rather than price (Lufthansa. British. Cathay Pacific. Singapore.), that pay their people well and fly reasonably new equipment.

I've flown on lots of bucket airlines in the third world, and have some horror stories to tell. (Did you know Egypt Air used to have a standing room section in the back of their DC 9's flying between Cairo and Aswan? You had to hang on to a strap, like on a bus!)

At a certain age you realize that life is too short for this kind of crap.

Excuse me? We need more Govt in our lives like we need more holes in our head! We have IMHO far too much as it is today.

Only regulation needed is for the public to find out what people are getting paid, and for them to beat feet to other airlines with more experienced crew who are getting paid a "living wage" that the others do not have.

You guys on the right and left coast can have the Govt run your lives all you want, but the rest of us in the remaining 45 states do not need it.

Joe A

After the Colgan crash, people know how badly these pilots are paid. Do you see passengers switching to other airlines, or regionals raising pay levels? If not, then how will the problem be fixed, or will it continue?

The airline industry does not seem to fix itself on its own, in some respects.

You want govt regulation, please make it in 5-7 years after I retire.

You are an Idiot. :rolleyes:


.

Just fnished a 15.5 hour day and will only get paid for 7.5 of it. This is the last day of a 4 day trip. Oh and I was already canned weeks ago. I would have to agree that days like this fall under that category.


Rest rules should be Door to Door not 45min before a flight to 15min after. I am not resting while waiting on the curb at the airport... Moving to requiring an ATP wont improve pay.. I am for the idea though.

I think most people just click "sort buy cheapest" on travelocity and dont give a ****...

Our bargain culture is killing many things.. including this industry.

Joe, you beat me to it.

Aviation has so many regulations and restrictions and oversights as it is today it's ridiculous. Just getting from takeoff to touchdown without breaking a rule and violating yourself is a knife-edge walk. It's very tricky business as you know. I used to spend more time worrying about breaking some stupid rule than about weather, procedures, etc. when I was flying commercially. It's nerve-wracking.

Also it should be pointed out that there are plenty of good pilots out there - even ones with relatively low total time. However there is the question of experience. Inexperience in the right seat I can tolerate to a certain extent, as it will come in time (and the right seat is supposed to be where you GET your experience, under the watchful eye of an experienced captain). Outright incompetence in the left seat I cannot. There is absolutely NO excuse for someone busting FIVE checkrides being allowed to fly revenue 121 operations. No way. I've always been of the belief if you fail even ONE at the commercial or ATP level, your career is basically over. Evidently not in this case. Wonder how much of a role the union played in keeping this joker around...

None of you "no more regulation" guys are explaining why the airline industry, left to its own devices, is going to pay young pilots more.

You've been expressing your outrage at how poorly regional airline pilots are paid. But you don't seem to be coming up with a solution.

I asked if some sort of regulation would be a solution. You say you don't want more regulation. So, what is your solution?

Who's outraged?

It's simply a consequence of the state of the industry and the absurdly low fares that airlines charge. Eventually it will sort itself out as the airlines blow up and/or consume one another and are able to charge fares that are actually reasonable and not at/below actual operating costs.

Another factor is the shift to lower-capacity RJs from traditional, larger-capacity aircraft on hub-to-hub routes. This trend is well-documented over the last 10-15 years. Fewer revenue seat-miles per flight leg means tighter cost/profit margins. This is one way Southwest can do what they do - you can pack a lot more people onto a 737 and afford to pay your pilots/crews/maintenance guys reasonable salaries and still charge very low fares - because you're not necessarily losing your shirt or budgeting to the last dime on every single leg. They're also exceedingly good at hedging their fuel prices, which most airlines (particularly regionals) are not.

FWIW, we used to have regulation in the form of the CAB (remember them?) It was yet another example of government meddling that made a ridiculous bloated bureaucratic nightmare of an industry. You really want THAT again?

The free market is the way to go.

If you buy a crappy PC or car, you know not to buy another one from that company again (ie Dell or GM) and you tell your friends about your experience. If you have a really crappy flight experience, your friends will discuss how bad airline XYZ is (at your wake) and they'll stop flying with that carrier.

And there's a bright side: the bad pilots will 'darwin out' of the system, leaving the better pilots, who will train the new crop. And by busting up so many airplanes, Boeing, AirBus, etc will be very busy building new ones, which in turn enhances their bottom line..

What's not to like?

national seniority list.

it would allow you to "shop around" your skills and leave a ****ty employer..

Not outraged? Hmm, you and others certainly sounded outraged before. So, the $16K regional jet pilot is in fact not something to be alarmed about?

I've been hearing for decades that the airline industry will "sort itself out". It has not happened. By many measures (industry profitability, industry pay, delays, customer experience, etc) this industry has gotten steadily worse over the past couple decades. I do not see why there is a good reason to predict that "eventually" will be soon enough.

I don't know the details of the CAB era. But I thought airline travel was actually better, for the customers anyway, pre-1978. I think it was better for the pilots too, at least they had pensions and better pay.

There is no solution. The point you're missing, is that there are pilots LINED UP who would fly for free to get their foot in the door or have SJS. (shiny jet syndrome). It's AFTER they get in that they gripe and complain about pay/conditions etc. (certainly not everyone, but they all know the deal before the apply) But it's the only way to get your foot in the door to one day get to the high paying jobs, even though those are becoming a thing of the past also.

Think of it in another industry. What if you love to race cars and you want to drive for Porsche one day and you have a chance to drive for a small race team that will build your seat time and stats. After you gain exp, you can then drive for the factory. Would take that job for a small amount of pay? Would you do it free to simply have the chance to drive??


The point is, unless you get to a point where there are not enough pilots to fill seats, or enough pilots willing to take the job for the low pay, you are at the mercy of the employer.

air cool is correct. A national senoirity list might work, but obviously no way that would ever happen. If it ever did, im sure all the employers would align their pay to be the same anyway.

How come no ones mentions the military route which doesn't pay much better?

What about the artificial economics that made regional jets possible?

In St Louis ex TWA - AA hub about all you can fly is a regional.

Okay, so the free market has NO solution for the $16,000 airline pilot problem.

So, the next question is, is this enough of a problem that it merits some sort of minimum wage for airline pilots? For example, that the guy/gal who holds fifty lives in his hands must make at least $30K, or 40K?

Can the problem be handled with some other form of regulation? For example, regulations concerning strict rest, skill, training, etc requirements and strict government enforcement of same? It's not actually a problem that the pilot is below the poverty line, as long as we're positive that he is well-rested, well-trained, not working a second job, not racked by financial stresses, etc?

Or, finally, is the $16,000 pilot actually not a problem after all, so that all the hand-wringing in this and prior threads is all misguided? If young guys want to fly shiny jets for roughly minimum wage "all in", that's their problem, no reason for passengers to care?

It seems to me that one of the preceding four paragraphs has to apply.
(1) Solve problem with no regulation, i.e. free market
(2) Solve problem with regulation - minimum wage
(3) solve problem with regulation - other than minimum wage
(4) there is no problem to solve.

Well, there is always:
(5) there is a problem and we'll ignore it.

What do you mean by artificial economics?

What are you talking about...an O-1 makes 30k in base pay, before housing allowance (adjusted for location, which on average equals 15K a year) flight pay (another 4k per year to start) and tax advantages.

So, brand new O-1 in flight school makes almost 50K a year while having more fun than you can imagine.