Alternate calibers? .17HMR, etc. Can't beat 'em, join 'em?
 

While perusing the local WalMart ammo case on my weekly run, in addition to seeing the typical empty holes where my favorite ammo used to reside (.45, .223, .40, .38, .308), I noticed bucket-loads of other ammo, some with dust/cobwebs on it (.17HMR, .22-250, 7mm, .30-30, etc.). This got me thinking...are there any other "common" guns (pistols/rifles) worthy of having that use these alternative calibers?

Why stress over finding .223 if I can find an AR-15 that shoots something else?

I know Savage used to make a nice .17HMR bolt-action. Any disadvantages to using this ammo?

What about handgun calibers? The only handgun ammo I saw in abundance (besides .22) was .44mag.

I've noticed the tons of 7mm laying around, but not much else by me. Not even .22.

Bass Pro Shop actually had some .308, 9mm, and tons of .38sp in stock on Friday.

Is this just for plinking?

My local Walmart gets 9mm in every week or two. I stop in a couple of times a week on my way home from work and usually find they have 2-5 boxes of 100 rounds of Winchester white box FMJ for $20 a box. I usually pick up 2 boxes at a time, but I think they allow 4.

Bass Pro Shops is expensive. I'd rather purchase on-line before giving them my $$$.

Yes, plinking ammo. I've already stock-piled enough of the "regular" stuff, but now I'm worried about "wasting" it at the shooting range.

.223 and 9mm is pretty easy to find online right now though I've got a couple thousand rounds of each right now so I'm not looking that hard. The only caliber that I'm struggling to find in good/bulk is .357mag.

I don't own a 9mm, but can't remember the last time I saw handgun ammo @ WalMart. I got lucky a few months ago and found a stash of .40 Remington just sitting there (truck must have just arrived). Went back the next day to buy more and it was all gone.

My question was not about where to find ammo, but to explore the "alternative" ammos that seem to be abundant.

My .17 HMR by Savage and my 22-250 by Howa are my favorite rifles, no contest. The 22 - 250 is a bit expensive to shoot though with a box of 20 @ 24.00 these days. I went to the .17 for just that reason. 26 cents a shot. BOTH are great rounds.

I have a Savage 93 in .17 HMR.

It has a very flat trajectory for such a light bullet (I shoot 17 grain bullets!). I'm telling you, it is a laser beam at 100 yards.

And I LOVE bolt-action rifles. They are simple, accurate, and VERY easy to clean.

I'll second that. Also they shoot better if you don't clean them.

PS: you will have to get a special rod and brush for them, it's a little tiny hole.

To me cleaning your weapon thoroughly with friends or family after a day of shooting is one of the joys of ownership.

Here are my "evil twins of varmint death".

Top Howa 1500 in 22-250. Bottom Savage 93 in .17

I feel like a golfer when I go out. I have a double case and take them both. Over 150 yards I shoot the 22-250.


HMRhttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1251050779.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1251050802.jpg

As a side note. for the .17 HMR I would highly recommend the BSA sweet 17 scope. I know, I know BSA's are crap, but this one has the elevation calibrated in yrds rather than clicks and it is calibrated for the ballistics of the .17- 17 grain cartridge. I like mine a lot. You just dial the yardage your focus gives you and BANG!, another dead groundhog!

yes I understand but believe me. I have put at least 500 through the .17 and it really does shoot better dirty.

Now there's a couple of drool worthy works of art.

Form and function in my house. I guess I learned that from owning Porsches. Thanks for the comps. Paul will attest to the fact that I live in the house of wood.

Pix!!!

Only if the wind doesn't blow. ;)

OP doesn't tell us what the intended use is. Target or small game hunting?

G

The .17 has such a fast TOF that it is not really very much affected by wind drift on anything under about 200m IIRC.

I am in this same boat.

I really wish I could find something to shoot through my model 98 Mauser but it's all either old crap or very expensive. Don't really feel like rechambering it, it's all original.

.17's intrigue me. Theres lots of 22-250 available here too.

They look better in person.

Just got a Savage 93 in WMR for Jack's birthday. As Legion mentioned, it is a laser beam at 100 yards.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1251113326.jpg

Which 7mm? 7x57, 7mm Remington Magnum, what? Just about everyone chambers a bolt gun in 7mm Remington Magnum, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's worth having. Almost no one still chambers the old 7x57, but it is definitely worth looking for one. Ruger used to chamber their # 1 single shot in this caliber, and their M77 bolt gun as well. It's a great old caliber.

For the .30-30, you can't go wrong with a Marlin lever gun. I have found them to be generally more accurate than the '94 Winchester (out of production anyway, but there are tens of millions laying around...). There have been some single shots and bolt actions over the years, but now we are getting a bit obscure. Besides, every growing boy needs a lever gun...

I've shied away from the .17 HMR. I still remember the 5mm Remington - try finding ammo for that one today. I suppose the little .17 has caught on a bit better, but I really don't know many that shoot it. I would be worried that my shiny new rifle would be worthless in the not-too-distant future. I think the old .22 mag is a better round anyway. Lots of guns in that caliber, and I seem to see it on shelves all the time.

Nothing wrong with a .44 mag revolver. Pick one up and feed it the magnums for now, and keep you eyes peeled for the Specials. This is a wondefully versatile calliber; everyone should have at least one revolver so chambered.

A guy i know just traded in his 6.5mm magnum because he cannot get ammo for it.

I knew a guy who had bought an M700 in 8mm Remington Magnum in the '70's when it first came out. By the mid '80's, when I met him, he could no longer buy ammo, even from Remington. He was forming cases from .375 H&H brass. Then he tried to hunt some African country with it, and couldn't get his ammo past customs because the headstamp didn't match the caliber stamped on the rifle. He wound up using a loaner .375 from the PH.

I'm extremely leery of oddball calibers. The current run of short magnums and super short magnums will, in all likelyhood, run this same course. They offer no practical advantage over anything else that has been out for much, much longer - notwithstanding the gun press's hype.

I see the .17 HMR in the same veign. Worse yet, it's a rimfire. At least with centerfires, we can reload for the oddballs. This is what happened with that old 5mm Remington; as a rimfire, when Remington quit making ammo, the rifles became useless.

As "oddball" as I get is with the .220 Swift and my black powder cartridges. The former is striclty a long range varmint gun / plinker, and the BPCR's are match rifles (although I have taken game with a few of them). None are hunting rifles that I would travel with. I handload for all of them, and have enough brass right now to last the rest of my life.

100% agreed. Just look at the .41 action express pistol cartridge that was all the rage in the early 90s.

Good freakin' luck finding ammo for that now.

Another guy i know had his CAR-15 converted to that 6.8mm round the US Army was evaluating. I told him all he did was ensure that when the spit hits the fan all he'll have is a club.

The 6.8 SPC? I know a few guys who are big proponents of that but I'll pass. With 5.56 and 7.62x51 ARs I have both ends of the spectrum covered.

The only "bizarre" AR round that interests me is the .458 SOCOM. I've got brass, dies, and heads (most .45-70 gov't heads work fine) enough to last me a lifetime. Nothing beats the fun-factor of sending a 1/2 lb of lead downrange w/in 3 seconds. :D

At .17 Remington velocities, maybe. A 4000 FPS Hornady .17 HP will drift 4" at 200 yards in a 10mph crosswind.

A .223, using Federal's published numbers (for their cheap American Eagle 55 FMJ) drifts 4.3 at the same range conditions.

Can't find any published wind for any of the .17 HMR, but I worked backwards from the Published CCI numbers and came up with a BC of 0.126. Using that figure, the CCI 17gr @ 2550 FPS drifts 3.3 inches at 100 yards, and 15.3 at 200.

So the .223, which isn't exactly known for it's wind bucking ability has 1/3 the wind of the .17 HMR.

Wind drift is a function of deceleration, not velocity. Deceleration is a function of ballistic coefficient, so we just skip a step and express wind drift as a funtion of ballistic coefficient. It's really not that easy, though, as BC changes for a given projectile with its velocity and atmospheric conditions (BC is far from a static number), but it's close enough for government work.

There is a common misperception that a very high starting velocity, achieved with a light for caliber bullet, will result in less time of flight and therefore less time for the bullet to be affected by a given wind. If only it were that simple. While giving up a bit in trajectory, that little .17 HMR would be a far more effective cartridge if it used a heavier bullet. Less wind drift, better velocity retention, and better terminal ballistics.

The 22 grain .17 HMR has much better killing power, but less velocity. 5" drift at 100 yrds in 5 mph wind.

I'm not sure of the exact cartridge name, but it's the same one that the failed HK 416 fired.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...Testing_lg.jpg

I've always thought a .220 swift chambered M-16 would be HOT, but no one at DoD listens to me.

Bro a .17 Rem has a faster TOF to 200 m than almost anything around. Since wind effect manifests over time, less TOF = less bullet travel.

But of course you are correct that heavier bullets drift less, all other things being equal.

That's a function of the ballistic coefficient of the projectiles, not the starting velocities.

Hence the .17 rem drifting so much less than the lower BC .17s with comparable velocities.

I can't imagine a full-auto 4000 fps round. Hot indeed. ;) How's the recoil on it? Never fired it myself.

It's pretty light. Certainly less than an AK 7.62x39 round.

Eh. If .17 HMR disappeared tomorrow, I'd just have the rifle rechambered for .22 WMR. Literally all it would take is changing the barrel, as .17 HMR is a necked-down .22 WMR case...

All this talk of fast rimfires got me looking around for an autopistol in either .17 HMR or .22 WMR. Mostly because I like the concept of the FNH Five-seveN (light, high-velocity bullet in a handgun) but don't care for the plastic.

I found this, which really started the wheels turning:

http://www.excelarms.com/1911conversionkit.html

http://www.excelarms.com/images/565_...r27_1157AM.jpg

That IS pretty slick, and not a bad price.

OK...you better not be wrong!!! Just picked up 1 of these, shot another guys .17 they are a gas to shoot. Stupid accurate, inside 100yds, take their eyes out everytime. Now...where's a good place to find the sweet 17's? Was looking at swarovski and zeiss to put on top, but doesn't really pencil out for shooting squirrels and such.

Get an elite series Bushnell scope. Made in Japan. Nice optics for the $.

George

There is a warning from Remington not to use their .17HMR ammo in an autoloader, and Remington is recalling all of their model 597 .17 HMR rifles.
http://www.remington.com/safety/17_HMR_Ammo_notice/default.asp

CCI has a similar warning about using 17HMR in a self-loader:
http://www.cci-ammunition.com/safety/safety_notice.aspx


It is both, actually, but the higher velocity of the .17 masks somewhat how much the .17s suck in the wind. In my American Eagle .223 example above, if the .17 was launched at the same velocity as the .223 (3240fps) it would still have half again as much wind, 6.4" vs 4.3" of drift at 200 in a 10mph wind.

He also isn't talking about .17 Remington though, he is talking about .17 HMR, which uses a lighter bullet (17 vs 25 grains) and much lower muzzle velocity (2550 vs ~4000fps). The BCs of 17 cal bullets all suck, and they all perform poorly in the wind, regardless of velocity.

Even when things aren't equal. For example, 2 loads

.17 Remington, 25gr Hornady HP, 4040 fps.
6.5-06, 140gr Hornady AMAX, 2818 FPS.

At 100 yards, in a 10MPH 90º wind:
17 has a Time of flight of .081 seconds, is still going 3428fps, and has drifted 1.1".
The 6.5 has a TOF of 0.11 seconds, is traveling 2655fps and has drifted 0.6"

At 200 yards in the same conditions:
17 has a Time of flight of .176 seconds, is down to 2889 fps, and has drifted 4.9".
The 6.5 has a TOF of .226 seconds, is traveling 2495 fps and has drifted 2.4"

So even though the .17 is still traveling faster at 200 yards than the 6.5 was at the muzzle, it still has twice the wind.

Time of flight isn't as important as people think it is. Even a marginally better bullet, the 55gr .224 Sierra Blitzking (with a BC of .264 at this velocity, compared to .187 for the .17) @3100fps has better windage (1.1" @ 100yds, 4.6" @ 200 yds) as the .17 even though it leaves the barrel nearly 1000fps slower.

Sweet 17's are all over ebay. Trust me it's the right scope for that gun. Get the 6x18x40. they use med high to high mounts too.

THx...sniping 1 right now;)