Employers, HR folks, bureaucrats...a question about workplace violence/threats and...

[Dueller]

...and discipline of employees.

I'll make this as brief as possible. State gov't employees. Client is trying to parallel park his car to report to work in the morning. He has not clocked in yet. Another state employee (doesn't work for the same agency as client) races past him between him and the parking space almost hitting client (client had to take a corrective turn to avoid getting hit.).

Client follows other employee to his assigned parking space and confronts him about almost hitting him. An argument ensues. Both start cursing and threatening each other. Neither makes an agressive move towards the other. Argument lasts less than one minute.

Client gets back in his car, parks and reports for duty. After a cup of coffee and 15 minutes of calming down, client finds out other guys name, calls him and leaves a voice message apologizing for losing his temper. Thinks nothing of it until 30 minutes later when security shows up and he is asked to leave the premises as other employee has filed a complaint.

He's placed on leave with pay pending an investigation. Informal hearings are conducted. Client given a due process letter about possible termination for making a threat/abusive language/etc. Informal investigations continue.

Today he receives a certified letter terminating him for workplace violence.

Client is an average state employee. Was reprimanded in 2004 for not doing what a supervisor told him to do. Average employee appraisals. No indications of any prior anger issues.

Mitigating circumstances: He is in his 40's, never married, lives/takes care of his parents who are in their late 70's/early 80's. Mother fell and broke her hip in January and has been in rehab...this has really got him upset/worried. To my knowledge his car is his only material possession and he is obsessive about taking care of it (99 Accord).

I know him personally for 8-9 years. He is the quietest, shyest person I've met. Artistic. Works as a production assistant/cameraman for public broadcasting. Never heard him raise his voice much less use profanity. oh yead....he's 6' 9" tall...bur really a meek, gentle giant.

First thing comes to mind is that he wasn't on duty and though he was on state property, this is unrelated to his job performance.


What say ye?

[dhoward]

Sounds like with no prior history, he should get a pass. Person complaining sounds like a wuss and risking an off-site ass-kicking.

[The Gaijin]

"Client follows other employee to his assigned parking space and confronts him about almost hitting him. An argument ensues. Both start cursing and threatening each other. Neither makes an agressive move towards the other. Argument lasts less than one minute..."


"Informal hearings are conducted. Client given a due process letter about possible termination for making a threat/abusive language/etc. Informal investigations continue.."

Sounds like a "he said / she said" to me. I would want to look at the file on the investigation and see what the other employee reported their own actions to be..

The following the other employee is the worst move by your client. However, you client had the civic responsibility to follow them to see if they were driving drunk/drugged, as their actions would suggest..

[911Rob]

what a load of crap!
In my day it would've been a punch in the head, end of matter.

Your client has nothing more to lose, go for it, both guns blazzing!

[Dueller]

There is a female witness who said other employee came speeding into the parking lot, that both were cursing each other but my clients behavior was the worst of the two. "Over the top" were her words. Confirms there were no agressive moves by either towards the other and that it lasted only a minute or two.

[Rikao4]

D..your a good soul..

sick'm...
he can then upgrade his ride..


Rika

[The Gaijin]

Is the other employee facing termination by the state? If no, why not??

Threats I could see... but can you really be fired just for cursing and yelling?

Your clients behavior only seemed so bad - 'cause he is so big.

[bigsid]

Our company follows the same policy.... a no tolerance policy...... If severe enough, people will be fired. The company is afraid of lawsuits. ie: hostile workplace etc. If they did nothing, they would be held liable if the violence escalated.

[vash]

most states practice ZERO tolerance. do you have a copy of their workplace violence handbook? i know they have one.

the other guy should be in the same boat. i have seen cussing and arguing, but i have never seen someone lose a job over it. maybe time off, month without pay type stuff. harsh.

[dhoward]

No tolerance means "I'm not getting in trouble for making a decision".

[The Gaijin]

Originally Posted by vash

most states practice ZERO tolerance.

the other guy should be in the same boat.

If they are both in the same boat - maybe they could agree nobody was threatening nobody, and nobody was really yelling anyway...

[Dueller]

No...my guys biggest mistake was following this guy into the parking garage and confronting him. To my knowlege the other guy has suffered no consequences. They work for different state agencies and each agency handles its own disciplin.

[notfarnow]

Originally Posted by Dueller

What say ye?

If you don't have control over your temper, you don't have control over your life.

Still though, I feel bad for him. Must be dark times, losing his job while caring for his elderly parents

FWIW, one of the dumbest things I have EVER done was to follow someone to a parking lot to confront them after they cut me off. Even though I was just calling the guy out in a rather calm way ("hey, did you realize you cut me off back there and almost hit me?"), he totally flipped out and I was really afraid he was going to hand me my a$$. Some people are just lunatics... and best avoided.

[vash]

only time i ever cracked that manual was:

working a long shift. pouring this huge bridge footing. this mild mannered, bi-polar engineer was with me. for some reason, he FLIPPED! he started cussing, kicking things, and threw a piece of 2x4 past my head. i gathered up my belongings, and moved to another portion of work. he followed me, apologizing profusely. i agonized over it for a week and cracked opened the violence prevention manual we have. the book said i had to report the incident, or i would be liable if it happened again, and somebody did get hurt. so i did. it sucked.

he didnt get fired. i dont even know what became of it. i just know i took it off my plate, and put it onto someone else's.

[Dueller]

Pertinent parts of employee handbook/regs:

Each appointing authority shall:

A. Establish fair and objective procedures...

B. Distinguish between serious and less serious acts of misconduct....;

C. Limit disciplinary action to employee conduct occurring only when employees are at work or when otherwise representing state in an official or work related capacity, unless otherwise provided in this section.

SCHEDULE OF OFFENSES

A. Group one {Less sever....tardiness, obscene or abusive language....}...punishable by written reprimand.

B. Group 2 More severe {insubordination, unexcused absences, failure to report to work....}...punishable reprimand and/or up to 5 days suspension w/0 pay

C. Group 3 Most severe {use of alcohol, falsification of records....6. acts of physical violence or fighting;.....9. threatening or coercing employees, supervisors, or business invitees of a state agency or office, including stalking;... 11. any acts of conduct occurring on or off the job which are plainly related to job performance and are of such a nature that to continue the employee in the assigned position could constitute negligence in regard to the agencies' duties to the public or other state employees;....punishable by suspension up to 30 days , demotion or discharge.

Likely relevant parts are highlighted.





My work now begins in earnest.

[Heel n Toe]

Originally Posted by Dueller

Another state employee (doesn't work for the same agency as client) races past him between him and the parking space almost hitting client (client had to take a corrective turn to avoid getting hit.)

I know this is unrelated to your question, but I'm still trying to wrap my brain around when you said the other guy "races past him between him and the parking space."

As far as I know, when you're doin' it right, there should be at most enough room for a guy on a bicycle to squeeze through. You pull up right beside the car in front of the space and start from there, right?

When I do it, there usually isn't even room for a bicyclist to pass. What's the story?

Did the incident occur in Step One of this diagram... or prior to that? If so, I wouldn't refer to that as "between him and the parking space," but to each his own.

[scottmandue]

Originally Posted by Dueller

...
First thing comes to mind is that he wasn't on duty and though he was on state property, this is unrelated to his job performance.


What say ye?

I think the person you are talking about has legal recourse.

What state are we talking here?

I'm a Calif. state worker and I would have to pretty much take a machete to my co-workers to get terminated.

Except for when the govenator decides to lay off all the new hires to balance the budget.

[Heel n Toe]

I don't know if this would have any bearing on the case, but it would be interesting to know if "the other guy" had read your client's apology email before he filed the complaint with HR or whoever.

I wonder if he went straight to HR upon entering the building. You could probably request your client's email records for that morning from the network administrator so you'd know what time it was sent, and whether it was opened prior to "the other guy" going to HR. I guess the most difficult thing to find out might be what time he made the complaint; whether the person in HR can remember what time it was.

Just a thought.

Also, regardless of the outcome, please tell your client that no matter how pristine he maintains that Accord, if he's so obsessed about it that he doesn't think he could handle a fender bender, he needs to seek professional help.

[Dueller]

HNT...it occurred between steps one and two. The street is an overly wide one way street. Client had pulled past the last parking spot as it was at a corner; i.e., there was no car or parking spot beyond where he was going to park. The "victim" drove in between clients car and the curb/parking space and then made the right turn at the corner. kinda difficult to describe but "victim" admits to passing client on right. Client had to turn to the left to avoid a collision.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Probably an excuse to "cut costs".