How much work should a CPO BMW have on it that should be reported to the buyer?

89911 · 05:16 PM

I just recently picked up a Certified Pre-Owned BMW. After completing the sale, I checked to see that it ran a clean carfax and has passed BMW's "Rigorous" pre owned certification. I know the salesman personally (which makes it worse). When it first came in, I called on it and it was reported back to me that is was "nice" with no issues. After buying it and cleaning it up, I found out that it is nice, too nice. Seems the hood, bumper cover, right and left fender, possible the right passenger door, and the rear bumper cover have been repainted. What created the investigation is the fitment of the right headlight with the fender and the hood. Not the same as the left with poor gaps. Seems the car to some kind of hit on the front right side. The front bumper is also slightly pushed in compared to the left. Once again, the paint job is as good as I have ever seen. I took it to a body shop I trust and he showed me the tape off lines and the difference in orange peel in the factory (BMW's have a slight one from the factory).

I took it back to the dealer, mainly to have them look at the misaligned seems and to schedule them to fix them. They agreed and it is going in on Wednesday. What is irking me is that when I sell this car, how is the value effected? How do I in good faith answer someone that asks if it has ever been repainted? I guess I just say it has a clean carfax was purchased from BMW. I actually don't care that is has been repainted, this isn't a 72S 911. The the dealer had to know the car had work when purchased and got if for less then one without work. The price I paid was about correct for the car being in excellent condition, not repainted. I am taking it to another shop next week before it goes back to the dealer for the fitment issues. I do understand the car is not new( 2006, 43k miles) and that is not unreasonable for the dealerships to recondition cars and repaint bumpers, hoods, and front fenders for rock chips and scratches. Repainting a car does not make if fail for being preowned also. I called BMWUSA and they stated that this was a "dealer specific" issue. Had I known the car had this amount of work, I would of, most likely, walked, despite the beautiful condition. Opinions welcomed.

kaisen · 10-10-2009, 05:40 PM

What color is the car? Certain colors (esp metallics) require adjacent body panels to be 'blended' in to match properly. BMW's CPO checklist does NOT disqualify for having paintwork. The whole car could have been painted. It could have been in an accident. As long as it is repaired to BMW's standards, it can still be CPO. In fact, the dealer may have had the work done! In fact, the rear bumper was likely resprayed by/for the dealer as cosmetic reconditioning.

I say get the panel alignment corrected, and don't sweat it.

http://resource.bmwusa.com/pdf_988f0bce-f3e2-44ac-a143-a81cd9e87fc2.arox

stomachmonkey · 10-10-2009, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 89911

...How do I in good faith answer someone that asks if it has ever been repainted?

You answer honestly.

I guess I just say it has a clean carfax was purchased from BMW.

While that is an honest answer but is still deceptive.

I actually don't care that is has been repainted, this isn't a 72S 911...

I think you do care, you care that it may cut into your profit so you are trying to rationalize that it's not a big deal.

Just my opinion and you did ask.

89911 · 10-10-2009, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaisen

What color is the car? Certain colors (esp metallics) require adjacent body panels to be 'blended' in to match properly. BMW's CPO checklist does NOT disqualify for having paintwork. The whole car could have been painted. It could have been in an accident. As long as it is repaired to BMW's standards, it can still be CPO. In fact, the dealer may have had the work done! In fact, the rear bumper was likely resprayed by/for the dealer as cosmetic reconditioning.

I say get the panel alignment corrected, and don't sweat it.

http://resource.bmwusa.com/pdf_988f0bce-f3e2-44ac-a143-a81cd9e87fc2.arox

Its Black Saphire Metallic. And I cannot even see where the blending was done. The color is dead on. Like I said, the panel misalignment is what drew me to it.

89911 · 10-10-2009, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

I think you do care, you care that it may cut into your profit so you are trying to rationalize that it's not a big deal.

Just my opinion and you did ask.

Who said I didn't care? I won't be making any profit of the car when I sell it. I have a car now that looks brand new, not one with 40k miles on it, so its not all bad. I'm just hoping the future buyer feels the same way.

kaisen · 10-10-2009, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 89911

Its Black Saphire Metallic. And I cannot even see where the blending was done. The color is dead on. Like I said, the panel misalignment is what drew me to it.

What model? Another X5?

89911 · 10-10-2009, 06:35 PM

2006 m5

kaisen · 10-10-2009, 07:18 PM

V10 M5= very cool!

There was one Black Sapphire '06 M5 with 42.4K sold at the BMW sale in California last Thursday (10/08) that BMW listed as 'below-average' but I doubt you'd see it that quickly.

Enjoy it, and tell us how you like it!

onewhippedpuppy · 10-10-2009, 07:47 PM

I'm suprised that the CPO program doesn't weed out cars that have been in accidents. Isn't that what you pay a premium for? Guaranteed "like new" used cars?

sammyg2 · 10-10-2009, 08:46 PM

Never trust a used car salesman. That is the only profession I can think of that gets paid to tell untruths more than lawyers. Even if he is a friend he can't be trusted or believed because he is a used car salesman. If his lips were moving and a sale was involved, he was lying to you.

I'm surprised it didn't show up on the carfax. Must have been a freebee under the radar or done by the dealer after it was traded in and done without the writeup. If the repair was paid for it is supposed to show up on carfax. Obviously there are ways around it.

Regardless, if the repair is done right and the performance or appearance of the car isn't affected, don't sweat it.

Oracle · 10-10-2009, 08:54 PM

They just walk around the car when you return the lease and the CPO (or any other) may be done by the junior guy in the shop so there is absolutely no guarantee they'll identify the car as "has been in an accident". Besides they don't want to know either so they new buyer doesn't know.. ever... Too bad now you something happened to the car, if you had not checked you'd be the happiest man...
I know how it feels and no that car you will sell it in less than a year... You bough it with a CPO because you wanted a perfect car... now you know is not..

Sell it and buy another one that makes you 100% happy

kaisen · 10-10-2009, 09:12 PM

It may or may not have been an accident. And if it was, it might not have been a 'significant' accident.

Do all the VIN tags match? There should be tamper-proof white tags on the hood, fenders, door, radiator support, and bumper cover. They should all be there. They should all have the same correct 17 digit VIN. If they don't match (but they're all there), bingo - a salvage part was used. If one is missing, it may have been a new part. BMW stamps their replacement panels 'R' and can be seen with the hood open.

If something were creased or kinked (a fender for example) and could be repaired, it would still wear the VIN tag.

If all VIN tags are present and match, it was likely minor / cosmetic damage.

Ask your bodyshop or BMW dealer to utilize an electronic paint meter (like Elcometer) to measure the paint depth around the car. If the panel were re-painted, it would have 'deep' paint. If filler was used (crease, etc) it would read very thick in that spot. The gauge should tell the story.

Your BMW dealer is required to check for unibody / apron damage. THAT'S what they're concerned about for CPO.

HardDrive · 10-10-2009, 09:38 PM

As long as the front end does not have any weird handling issues, and the repairs are done well, I guess I don't see it has a huge issue. You can do some wicked damage to a car, and not have it disturb the frame. I had a construction sign blow over on my 911 when I was going about 10 miles an hour. Amazing amount of damage, all cosmetic.

Yes, they should have said something. But their car salesmen. They're paid to lie.

McLovin · 10-10-2009, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

I'm suprised that the CPO program doesn't weed out cars that have been in accidents. Isn't that what you pay a premium for? Guaranteed "like new" used cars?

If they eliminated all cars that have been in an accident and have had paint work done on them, they'd not have nearly enough cars to sell.

These are all long term rental returns. Stuff happens to rental equipment.

Heel n Toe · 10-10-2009, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 89911

I just recently picked up a Certified Pre-Owned BMW. After completing the sale, I checked to see that it ran a clean carfax and has passed BMW's "Rigorous" pre owned certification.

...snip...

After buying it and cleaning it up, I found out...

I'm not trying to be a smartazz, but in all manner of auto-related message boards, I can't tell you how many times I have seen people post pictures of cars they're considering buying... and people on the message board say "looks great... but be sure to have it fully checked out before you buy it."

Sometimes people take the advice, sometimes they don't. Some say, "I decided to go ahead and take a chance because I really like it and the guy said somebody else was looking at it and/or about to buy it out from under me."

And then they find bad stuff when they check the car out.

I hope your car turns out to be trouble-free and fun and everything you hoped it would be, but....

...unless I misunderstood your post, you did it backwards. Next time check it out before buying it.

Either that, or you could just skip the checking it out step.

onewhippedpuppy · 10-11-2009, 03:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McLovin

If they eliminated all cars that have been in an accident and have had paint work done on them, they'd not have nearly enough cars to sell.

These are all long term rental returns. Stuff happens to rental equipment.

Go look at regular used BMWs. Then go look at CPO BMWs. CPO is significantly more expensive. They shouldn't put that label on the car, and the subsequent price premium, unless the car is worth it. But obviously they do.

1990C4S · 04:47 AM

I see three options:

1. Keep the car and sell it with full disclosure a) clean carfax , b) I bought it CPO from BMW, c) it is pretty much flawless, there was a minor issue with the front right corner which BMW repaired for me, d) I do not know what caused the issue in c). From there, let the chips fall where they may. Some buyers will be totally anal and and not be interested in 'damaged goods', some (like me) expect a used car to have been 'driven'. If they are properly repaired I have no issues.

2. Push it back on the dealer, you should be able to get the name of the previous owners from a title search. Track them down and find out what damage the car incurred. Your 'friend' should back you on this. It is an honesty and disclosure, they failed to meet a reasonable standard. Full refund or an agreement to share the 'hit'.

3. Keep it for yourself. Drive the snot out of it.

Carfax wont show an accident that the owner paid for out of his pocket. So it isn't a guarantee of any sorts, just an 'indicator'. I put zero stock in them as a buyer.

Do not involve a lawyer, other than to write a single threatening letter if you choose option 2. above. It just isn't worth it otherwise.

Lastly, Even if you lose a few grand on it by being honest your reputation will remain intact. In your business that is a small price to pay.

89911 · 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heel n Toe

I'm not trying to be a smartazz, but in all manner of auto-related message boards, I can't tell you how many times I have seen people post pictures of cars they're considering buying... and people on the message board say "looks great... but be sure to have it fully checked out before you buy it."

Sometimes people take the advice, sometimes they don't. Some say, "I decided to go ahead and take a chance because I really like it and the guy said somebody else was looking at it and/or about to buy it out from under me."

And then they find bad stuff when they check the car out.

I hope your car turns out to be trouble-free and fun and everything you hoped it would be, but....

...unless I misunderstood your post, you did it backwards. Next time check it out before buying it.

Either that, or you could just skip the checking it out step.

Yes you are right, but isn't that WHY you buy a car that has a pedigree program (or at least advertises the h*ll that they do) like Mercedes or BMW preowned plans. I have purchased many used cars over my life. If this was coming from "Dave's used cars" on the corner, a full ppi is what I would have done. It never even entered my mind that they would take in car with prior body work like this. It doesn't take much, just a buyer with a paint thickness gauge. And this is what these guys do for a living so it should be a routine measure. One of the reasons I went for the car is that it just had $6000 worth of work to get it certified (Tires, 2 new wheels, brakes, etc). I am taking it to another shop this week and getting a more accurate idea the extent of work done. I will reiterate that the car is perfect other then a few seams and this would not be picked up by 99% of anyone looking at the car.

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89911 · 10-11-2009, 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts

If it was a "normal" 3-series or something like that, then I would probably say don't worry about it. But this is an M5, which is in a different premium category. With CPO cars, you are basically trusting BMW or the dealer to perform the PPI for you. Panels should not be repainted on an 06 - this car was surely in an accident, and yes, it will reduce it's value in the future. I would beat the dealership up for some more money back, and/or give the car back to them.

-Wayne

That is my angle. I may demand they add a full maintenance plan to the car. This covers all items other then tires and is transferable. As far as giving the car back. Is it that easy?

kaisen · 10-11-2009, 06:35 AM

Did they show you the itemized bill(s) for their $6000 reconditioning? Demand it.

Did they show you the CPO checklist? Demand it. Ask them how they justified checking-off the panel gaps and painted panels. Were you able to view the CPO checklist I linked?

You had it inspected by a bodyshop. Did they perform a formal inspection, or a fast casual look-over? Did they find any evidence of previous work to any inner (non-bolt-on) panels? Did they paint-gauge it? What was their opinion?

If you are truly dis-satisfied, you will have recourse. The dealer should figure out how to either explain things to your satisfaction, make things right financially, or unwind the deal and return/exchange the car.

Do you know anything about the history of this car? Was it purchased at auction? Was it a trade in? Was it previously leased? Did they buy it from another dealer where it was traded?

I agree with Wayne. The M5 is different and you should have reason to be particular.