Say Bye Bye

[tabs]

Say bye bye to CITI and WAMU...with Wachovia a possible third...they will be shadows of their former selves if they are not bought up. CITI sold its German retail bank unit today to the Frogs...for $7B in cash.

Come to think of it, this is the last hurrah of the USA as the dominate financial power in the world...we have blown our wad...The USA is for sale....NICE GOING BOOMERS....

I maybe being a bit pessimistic here? But it sure don't look too good.

Anyway..if Obama becomes Prez, he and Congress are going to try and get blood out of a Turnip to fund their social programs,,,,only problem is there will be no money left and they won't be able to do a dam thing. If they should try and push they will turn this country into a down on its heels has been of a nation that will take decades to recover if ever. So let us all chant...we want socialism, we want socialism, we want socialism....

Jamie Dimon said last week that he is not worried about Morgan Stanley being profitable if the Dems get in, there are plenty of places to invest money in the world. So say bye bye to Morgan Stanley tooo....

[Porsche-O-Phile]

And to think when I was worried about this a year and a half ago I was pooh-poohed as a pessimist. . .

God I hate being right all the time.

[john70t]

We'll just open the prisons and send 'em to Cuba ;p

[Aurel]

I think whether one decides to be a pessimist or an optimist, they will always be right because this is what will decide their outcome. External conditions are irrelevant to ones failure or success, and external conditions are only the mirror of global thoughts. Thought directs matter and circumstances, not the other way round.

Aurel

[island911]

tabs, why do you think WAMU is in that much trouble? --From my experience they have been one of the more responsible lenders.

[einreb]

Originally Posted by island911

tabs, why do you think WAMU is in that much trouble? --From my experience they have been one of the more responsible lenders.

Engineering experience? I'm assuming that tabby doesnt think they are going under... just going away. wamu was nearly bought out by JP Morgan last month for 8 a share. Sitting at 5 now?

Wamu has an unusually high percentage of mortgages in its loan portfolio compared to its peers.

[tabs]

Originally Posted by Aurel

I think whether one decides to be a pessimist or an optimist, they will always be right because this is what will decide their outcome. External conditions are irrelevant to ones failure or success, and external conditions are only the mirror of global thoughts. Thought directs matter and circumstances, not the other way round.

Aurel

Honestly...During the Great Depression it didn't matter how much of an optimist you were, you were still fked.

I have always been one to let myself feel the negative feelings...perversely by letting yourself go where you need to be is ultimately an optismistic stance.

There are times when you should feel depressed...the death or illness of a loved one for example SHOULD make you depressed. If you don't feel that way something ain't right in Denmark folks.

For a very close family member or friend....at least a year...to let yourself work it out.


Now here is what people don't realize..if you don't let yourself be...and feel all those nasty feelings..guess what you never resolve the issue and I can guarntee you it will come back and haunt you in some way.

Or maybe I should say it another way...it will resolve itself one way or another, maybe decades later.

Anyway I got off topic..

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Originally Posted by island911

tabs, why do you think WAMU is in that much trouble? --From my experience they have been one of the more responsible lenders.

In this case "responsible [mortgage] lender" is analogous to "petty thief" or "recreational drug user" or "small-time bank robber" as opposed to "professional thief", "hardcore meth-head" or "big-time bank robber". They're in no way innocent.

All these guys got in on the party and guzzled down the poisoned Kool-Aid. The extent to which the various players get sick (or die) depends on how much they had AND how good their immune system is. But they're all going to at least get sick and some are unquestionably going to die. . . Which ones is anybody's guess right now.

[RANDY P]

Originally Posted by island911

tabs, why do you think WAMU is in that much trouble? --From my experience they have been one of the more responsible lenders.

WAMU will have a Mushroom cloud over their HQ here shortly with all those Pay Option Arms they own. Someone on the inside said as much as 50% of their portfolio were those things.

Then, there is the acquisition of their subprime division "Long Beach Mortgage Co" but they turned that company into a hoorhouse for subprime loans.

They used to rubber stamp anything- I sent all my not a chance in hell loans there.


Appraisal looked like it was 10% too high? - Exception granted (big one)

Payment too high for approval - Exception granted (big one)

They basically bought anything as long as the property was OK and you weren't more that a little off of meeting the requirements.

[RANDY P]

F WAMU - they are the primary reason today I have to deal with Appraisal reform. thanks to them being in bed with that skanky appraisal company there is a chance I cannot order my own appraisal-

FNMA et. al are passing rules that require the lending bank (not the loan originator) not have any contact with the appraiser whatsoever. The appraisal must be ordered by the lender themselves. This is a resulf of hte deal they struck with Cuomo in NY over the appraisal scandal.

Before you all start cheering keep this in mind:

1) - If I don't know for a fact if your value is there before I order it, there is a possibility that it may not come in high enough to make the deal work as quoted. Means YOU the borrower get stuck paying for an appraisal that didn't go anywhere. I'm not paying it, nor will any other originator. You can bet that.

2)- it also means the bank now has the right to declare that "the value is too high" and as a result, charge you a higher rate, and no one can challenge it. This happens already with more than a few lenders - Some UW sees that they can lower what your house is worth, make you pay more and me make less, then when they sell it, they get "full value" and they get to keep all the cash.

Remember, the banks broker ouot these loans to FNMA like I broker loans to you.

3)- since you have to buy it, it makes the ability to shop much more burdensome if the deal goes sour. You don't like what the bank says after they get the appraisal? too bad, go somewhere else and pay for another, I guess.

WAMU has never been a good neighbor or a responsible lender in that sense, I hope they fry like Chicken. One of the earliest lessons I learned 13 years ago in this biz was "WAMU HATES BROKERS..." They hate clients too.

rjp

[ronin]

Originally Posted by Aurel

I think whether one decides to be a pessimist or an optimist, they will always be right because this is what will decide their outcome. External conditions are irrelevant to ones failure or success, and external conditions are only the mirror of global thoughts. Thought directs matter and circumstances, not the other way round.

Aurel

spoken like a true realist

[BReif61]

So what's this all mean for us poor renters? Houses are going to get cheap, but you better be able to pay cash?

[HardDrive]

Originally Posted by BReif61

So what's this all mean for us poor renters? Houses are going to get cheap, but you better be able to pay cash?

Sorry, US currency is no longer worth the paper its printed on. Gold, chickens or barrels of rum are now acceptable payment options.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Renting is a damn fine place to be right now.

They sure as hell aren't going to be raising my rent anytime soon. Heh heh heh. I've been seeing prices plummet all around my area.

Purchase prices are going to continue to plummet, yes. And financing is going to be virtually impossible to obtain for the foreseeable future. The time to buy will be when things are horrible, at the bottom, foreclosures and shuttered-up houses all over the place and when a few daring lenders start to poke their heads out of their underground bomb shelters and actually begin to lend again. Once that happens, it'll be the time to buy. Unless you're fortunate enough to have hundreds of thousands of dollars in cash right now.

But I don't see that happening for at least 12-24 more months.

[BReif61]

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

Unless you're fortunate enough to have hundreds of thousands of dollars in cash right now.

Only in a perfect world.

[RANDY P]

Originally Posted by BReif61

So what's this all mean for us poor renters? Houses are going to get cheap, but you better be able to pay cash?

Save up 3%, make sure you credit has been PERFECT (don't make any new bad debt- old bad debt is OK still) for the last 12 mos, and then have at it.

If you are a Veteran, you can probably do zero down still.

rjp

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

In this case "responsible [mortgage] lender" is analogous to "petty thief" or "recreational drug user" or "small-time bank robber" as opposed to "professional thief", "hardcore meth-head" or "big-time bank robber". They're in no way innocent.

All these guys got in on the party and guzzled down the poisoned Kool-Aid. The extent to which the various players get sick (or die) depends on how much they had AND how good their immune system is. But they're all going to at least get sick and some are unquestionably going to die. . . Which ones is anybody's guess right now.

Yeah, it had nothing to do with the PEOPLE. You know, the ones who entered into a legal and binding contract to pay back a loan? The ones who are deciding they don't want to live up to their obligations because it's inconvenient? F them. They they are ones to blame. If the no-morals scum would just keep paying their mortgage that they agreed to instead of walking away, we wouldn't have a problem, would we?

[Porsche-O-Phile]

I don't disagree with you at all. I'd say 99%+ of the blame for this falls squarely on the shoulders of the borrowers, but there was plenty of bad behavior all around.

I'm certainly not letting the lenders off the hook though - they were stupid enough to originate these loans and they are going to be the ones that croak as a result.

I completely agree with you in principle that "if people just met their obligations, there wouldn't be a problem", but to ass-u-me that everyone is going to do that - particularly the most historically indiscriminate members of society using "liar loans" and with lousy credit histories - is just looking at the world through rose-colored glasses. Enter the concept of "risk management" which was completely absent from mortgage origination the last five years.

Frankly I think bringing back the debtors' prisons might not be such a bad idea in this country. If that's what it takes to get people to think twice before using debt as "funny money", maybe the ends would justify the means. . .

[daepp]

How about Indymac?

On a side note, Schumer should be impeached!

[ronin]

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

I don't disagree with you at all. I'd say 99%+ of the blame for this falls squarely on the shoulders of the borrowers, but there was plenty of bad behavior all around.

bingo! I find it absolutely amazing as to how few people are actually willing to say this. it all comes down to personal responsibility. did you (and I don't mean you personally, of course) actually bother to read your contract? if you did and couldn't understand it, did you consult an attorney? if no, then you had no business in entering a legal contract, much less trying to get the taxpayer to bail you out now