Double tap- raw horsepower for spoons

[m21sniper]

Post lifted from link at the bottom:

corey006
April 13, 2007, 10:01 AM

Here are official gelatin results for all of the DoubleTap loads!

All of these tests were done using 10% ballistic gelatin provided by Vyse gelatin using all FBI protocols and 4 layers of denim and two layers of light cotton T-shirt in front of the gelatin.

DoubleTap 9mm+P Penetration / expansion
115gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1415fps - 12.00" / .70"
124gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1310fps - 13.25" / .70"
147gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.00" / .66"

DoubleTap .40 S&W
135gr. Nosler JHP @ 1375fps - 12.10" / .72"
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1275fps - 13.00" / .76"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1200fps - 14.0" / .70"
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1100fps - 14.75" / .68"
200gr XTP @ 1050fps - 17.75" / .59"

DoubleTap .357 Sig
115gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1550fps - 12.25" / .71"
125gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1450fps - 14.5" / .66"
147gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1250fps - 14.75" / .73"

DoubleTap .357 Magnum
125gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1600fps - 12.75" / .69"
158gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 19.0" .56"

DoubleTap 10mm
135gr JHP @ 1600fps - 11.0" / .70" frag nasty
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps - 13.5" / .88"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"
165gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1425fps - 14.75" / .82"
180gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1330fps - 16.0" / .85"
180gr XTP @ 1350fps – 17.25” / .77”
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"
200gr XTP @ 1250fps - 19.5" / .72"
230gr Equalizer @ 1040fps - 11.0" and 17.0" / .62" and .40"

DoubleTap .45ACP
185gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1225fps - 12.75" / .82"
200gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.25" / .88"
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95"

DoubleTap 9X25
115gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1800fps - 10.0" / .64" frag nasty:what:
125gr Gold DOt JHP @ 1725fps - 15.0" / .74"
147gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1550fps - 17.5" / .68"

Ballistic gelatin test results : 10mm Auto [Archive] - THR


--------------------------

Double tap velocities are absolutely amazing, and most of their loads use the state of the art Speer Gold Dot bonded core hollowpoint.

I just ordered 100rds of the 124gr +P 9mm. The 115 is a little hotter, but they're still loading the Remington 115gr JHP in it. Mike at DT told me they're waiting on an order of 115gr Gold Dots before they start loading them again. The 115gr load makes an amazing 515ft-lbs of muzzle energy from a glock 17.

I also have 50rds of their 147gr FMJ-FN trail load too.

Note that 9mm DT ammo gives performance equal to many of the super hot DT .40, .357 Sig and .45 caliber loadings.
With today's ammo selection, for self defense, IMO 9mm is as good as anything else.

The 230gr .45ACP load is something else though.

[HHI944]

That 230 grain 45 is pretty mean. Over 1000fps andover 100 percent expansion..........

[Rick Lee]

Sounds like most of these would exit the bad guy and might hurt someone else, no?

[m21sniper]

Supposedly optimum penetration for a frontal shot is 8"-10", but many shots are not frontal shots. You might need to punch through the BG's arms, a car door, a drywall, window glass, etc, etc, etc before you get to the vitals, or it could be a big jolly fat man, or perhaps even some sort of wilderness critter- hence the rationale' behind having deeper penetration.

The FBI arbitrarily sets the mandatory minimum penetration depth threshold for police ammunition at 12" in 10% gelatin. Some consider 15" to be ideal, others think 18" is ideal. To me, i think right around 12" is the ideal penetration depth for private citizen self defense ammo. I can see why cops and especially soldiers would want significantly more though.

The test performed in the OP are the "Denim tests." These results are all very impressive.

The performance of the 10mm 135gr (supposedly it achieves 5.56mm type destructive fragmentation) 9x25 115gr and the .45 ACP 230gr are especially amazing.

[Eric Coffey]

Chamber pressures must be way high on some of those. Hard on your weapon in the best case scenario, blown up in your face in the worst. Especially for places like here in the desert where a very hot day + hot barrel can add a couple hundred fps to average/rated chrono figures (and accompanying pressures).

[m21sniper]

It's all within SAAMI recommendations supposedly. In fact a lot of it is not even rated +P. (That tremendously performing .45 ACP round is just standard pressure)

There is a lot of information regarding pressure levels in my follow up posts on this thread. Double Tap gets it's tremendous velocities by maintaining a higher average pressure, as opposed to a single massive peak pressure.

It's interesting to me that the 9mm loading is virtually identical in performance to the .357 sig, .40S&W and .357 magnum loadings. This further reinforces my oft stated belief that the 9mm is the best self defense round available, all things considered.

The .45 does offer tremendous performance, but you have half as many rounds as a typical "wonder nine", and typically, heavier recoil.

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Originally Posted by Eric Coffey

Chamber pressures must be way high on some of those. Hard on your weapon in the best case scenario, blown up in your face in the worst.

I could see how that would be a concern if you were a GLOCK sort of person.

[berettafan]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

. Double Tap gets it's tremendous velocities by maintaining a higher average pressure, as opposed to a single massive peak pressure.

The .45 does offer tremendous performance, but you have half as many rounds as a typical "wonder nine", and typically, heavier recoil.

So the idea is a powder that burns a touch slower. I would guess it is still putting out increasing pressures as the bullet nears the end of the bbl vs. a faster more 'peaky' powder that might be losing pressure before the bullet exits.

In shotgunning (not sure if this would translate to the short bbls in handguns) a slower powder produces more of a shove than a kick.

[MotoSook]

I'm no expert, but could this be explained in gearhead terms as peak power -vs- a wide power band? The bullet has to accelerate out of the barrel. As along as there is increasing power (pressure) behind the bullet acceleration be will positive resulting in a faster exit velocity. The trick is getting a continues rising pressure (up to the max rating) and compete burn or near complete burn in an average length barrel for a mass produced round.

[Jeff Higgins]

There are a lot of "non-canister" grades of powders available to the ammunition industry that are not available to hand loaders. These first showed up in the "light magnum" rifle loads, wherein the .30-'06 achieves near 300 Win Mag velocities without exceeding SAAMI allowable pressures. It was only a matter of time before similar advances were made in pistol powders.

1000 fps in a 230 grain .45 is a formidable load. I've killed game with black powder .45 Colt loads, with a 250-is grain bullet going under 900 fps. A hard cast semi wadcutter will exit the biggest mulies in the west on broadside shots, even breaking one shoulder.

With that in mind, I actually kind of question the veracity of this hot .45 ACP load as a "defensive" round. I think it actually has too much power. The standard .45 ACP strikes a very nice balance of plenty of power, controlable recoil, minimal muzzle flash, and relatively low noise. This new load must buck and bark a good deal more. That, and regardless of pressure levels obtained, it is going to be damn hard on any 1911. Recoil velocity of the slide has nothing to do with pressures generated - it's purely a function of bullet weight and velocity. As we discovered over two decades ago with the hot 10mm auto, that old 1911 can only take so much.

[m21sniper]

This is definitely not the kind of ammo you'd shoot every day for practice. It's high pressure premium hunting or self defense ammo, best used sparingly for when you really need it. DT uses all nickel plated brass cases, btw.

Gold dot bonded core jacketed hollow points are designed by the same designer that made the old PMC Starfire (almost the same technology) and the same guy that designed the Remington Golden Saber. It is the extremely tough nature of that bullet that allows such high velocities combined with such deep penetration.

For instance, the DT 9mm+P 115gr loading has about 50fps more velocity than Cor Bon 115 (Loaded with a conventional Sierra JHP), but it achieves between 2"- 3" more penetration as well.

The DT load matches Cor Bon 110gr Powrball (1500fps) in penetration, and exceeds it in expansion (9mm Powrball is 12" penetration and .64 expansion and has no bonded core jacket)

I've had a ballistics gelatin tester for the Pennsylvania State police flat out personally endorse the Gold Dot design. He says it always expands, regardless of the intermediate medium.

I'll get some recoil impulse data that i saw browsing the web last night and post it here.

[m21sniper]

I found these posts which discuss the pressures:

POST 1:

saspic

"This comes up all the time, I really should have saved the post where McNett (Load developer of DT ammo and a poster at Glock Talk) originally spoke to this issue on Glocktalk or somewhere.
He said that the secret to DoubleTap's performance was not in maximum pressure achieved, but in keeping the pressure above a (relatively low) 7,000 p.s.i. for as long as possible.
When their 9 millimeter first came out, I remember him posting that the only reason it wasn't standard pressure was because 9mm fans looking for self defense ammo only consider that with +p designation. He said it he pushed it to 35,200 so it would just barely be technically into +p territory.
Notice their rather hot .45 A.C.P. isn't even +p.
http://doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/index.php"

POST 2:

jad0110

saspic hit the nail on the head.

The relationship between velocity and pressure is not simple and direct. A certain powder in a certain caliber in a certain barrel length can actually produce significantly higher velocity for the same or even less pressure than a less optimum powder choice. Take BB's standard pressure 158 grain 38 special load. It is roughly equivalent in performance to the famous Remington FBI load, 158 grain +P. But the pressure is lower. As saspic stated, a less than perfect powder choice will have a high, short spike in pressure. The peak pressure is what winds up being reported as the SAAMI pressure rating. Pressure spikes are less preferred for getting a bullet up to speed than a powder that applies more even pressure at a lower peak. Such a powder (without the high peak) can often drive the bullet to a higher velocity.

Richard Lee discusses the at length in Modern Reloading, 2nd Ed.

As for whether or not BB or DT adhere to SAAMI, I would think they'd be opening the door to hellacious lawsuits if they didn't.

Does Double Tap and Buffalo Bore really live up to its hype - THR

[m21sniper]

Post lifted from, and discusses recoil impulses of all 9mm parabellum loadings: Recoil energy: Comparing 9mm 115gr vs. 124gr vs. 147gr - Glock Talk

(Poster name: coal)

Numbers I ran using factory data to satisfy my curiousity:

Weight = Velocity = Free Recoil Energy in ft/lbs

Blazer FMJ
115 = 1145 = 7.14
124 = 1090 = 7.39
147 = 950 = 7.76

Federal FMJ
115 = 1180 = 7.53
124 = 1150 = 8.13
147 = 1000 = 8.50

Federal HST
115 = N/A
124 = 1150 = 8.13
147 = 1000 = 8.50
124 +p = 1200 = 8.77
147gr +p = 1050 = 9.28

S&B FMJ
115 = 1287 = 8.78
124 = 1188 = 8.62
147 = N/A

Remington GSHP
115 = 1180 = 7.53
124 = 1125 = 7.82
147 = 990 = 8.35

Remington Express
115 = 1250 = 8.33
124 = 1100 = 7.52
147 = 990 = 8.35

Gold Dot
115 = 1210 = 7.87
124 = 1220 = 9.04
147 = 985 = 8.28

Winchester FMJ
115 = 1190 = 7.64
124 = 1140 = 8.01
147 = 990 = 8.35

Winchester Ranger T-Series
115 = N/A
124 = 1250 = 9.44
147 = 990 = 8.35

Winchester Ranger JHP
115 = 1335 = 9.37
115 = 1225 = 8.04

Double Tap
115 +p = 1415 = 10.40
124 +p = 1310 = 10.27
147 +p = 1135 = 10.69

Fiocchi FMJ
115 = 1260 = 8.45
124 = 1180 = 8.26
147 = 1000 = 8.50

MagTech
115 = 1155 = 7.25
115gr +p = 1328 = 9.28
124 = 1109 = 7.62
147 = 990 = 8.35

Wolf
115 = 1150 = 7.19
124 = 1130 = 7.88
147 = 985 = 8.28

PMC FMJ
115 = 1160 = 7.30
124 = 1110 = 7.64
147 = N/A


Sorted by Free Recoil Energy:
Make, Weight, Velocity Recoil (ft/lbs)
Blazer FMJ 115 1145 7.14
Wolf 115 1150 7.19
MagTech 115 1155 7.25
PMC FMJ 115 1160 7.30
Blazer FMJ 124 1090 7.39
Remington Express 124 1100 7.52
Federal FMJ 115 1180 7.53
Remington GSHP 115 1180 7.53
MagTech 124 1109 7.62
Winchester FMJ 115 1190 7.64
PMC FMJ 124 1110 7.64
Blazer FMJ 147 950 7.76
Remington GSHP 124 1125 7.82
Gold Dot 115 1210 7.87
Wolf 124 1130 7.88
Winchester FMJ 124 1140 8.01
Winchester Ranger JHP 115 1225 8.04
Federal FMJ 124 1150 8.13
Federal HST 124 1150 8.13
Fiocchi FMJ 124 1180 8.26
Gold Dot 147 985 8.28
Wolf 147 985 8.28
Remington Express 115 1250 8.33
Remington GSHP 147 990 8.35
Remington Express 147 990 8.35
Winchester FMJ 147 990 8.35
Winchester Ranger T-Series 147 990 8.35
MagTech 147 990 8.35
Fiocchi FMJ 115 1260 8.45
Federal FMJ 147 1000 8.50
Federal HST 147 1000 8.50
Fiocchi FMJ 147 1000 8.50
S&B FMJ 124 1188 8.62
Federal HST 124 1200 8.77
S&B FMJ 115 1287 8.78
Gold Dot 124 1220 9.04
Federal HST 147 1050 9.28
MagTech 115 1328 9.28
Winchester Ranger JHP 115 1335 9.37
Winchester Ranger T-Series 124 1250 9.44
Double Tap 124 1310 10.27
Double Tap 115 1415 10.40
Double Tap 147 1135 10.69


Notes & Assumptions:
Recoil Calculator
Velocity pulled from manufacturer website today
115gr = 4.6gr powder*
124gr = 4.4gr powder*
147gr = 4.2gr powder*
1lb = handgun weight
*Manufactures don't list powder charge weight. I suspect slight variations and more velocity to come from more of the same powder, or same/less of a faster powder. And, heavier bullets use less powder as they have less remaining case volume and greater weight. Still, differences of 0.xgr in powder amounts will not skew results significantly.


Observations:
If the 147gr is traveling at 950fps:
- 115gr needs to be traveling >1214fps
- 124gr needs to be traveling >1126fps
for the 147gr to have less recoil.

If the 124gr is traveling at 1050fps:
- 115gr needs to be traveling >1132fps
for the 124gr to have less recoil.

Others:
147gr vs. 115gr
If 147 = 900 , then 115 velocity > 1150 fps
If 147 = 925 , then 115 velocity > 1182 fps
If 147 = 950 , then 115 velocity > 1214 fps
If 147 = 975 , then 115 velocity > 1246 fps
If 147 = 1000 , then 115 velocity > 1278 fps
If 147 = 1025 , then 115 velocity > 1310 fps
If 147 = 1050 , then 115 velocity > 1342 fps
If 147 = 1075 , then 115 velocity > 1374 fps
If 147 = 1100 , then 115 velocity > 1406 fps
147gr vs. 124gr
If 147 = 900 , then 124 velocity > 1067 fps
If 147 = 925 , then 124 velocity > 1097 fps
If 147 = 950 , then 124 velocity > 1126 fps
If 147 = 975 , then 124 velocity > 1156 fps
If 147 = 1000 , then 124 velocity > 1185 fps
If 147 = 1025 , then 124 velocity > 1215 fps
If 147 = 1050 , then 124 velocity > 1245 fps
If 147 = 1075 , then 124 velocity > 1274 fps
If 147 = 1100 , then 124 velocity > 1304 fps
124gr vs. 115gr
If 124 = 1050 , then 115 velocity > 1132 fps
If 124 = 1075 , then 115 velocity > 1159 fps
If 124 = 1100 , then 115 velocity > 1186 fps
If 124 = 1125 , then 115 velocity > 1213 fps
If 124 = 1150 , then 115 velocity > 1240 fps
If 124 = 1175 , then 115 velocity > 1267 fps
If 124 = 1200 , then 115 velocity > 1294 fps
If 124 = 1225 , then 115 velocity > 1321 fps
If 124 = 1250 , then 115 velocity > 1348 fps
If 124 = 1275 , then 115 velocity > 1375 fps
If 124 = 1300 , then 115 velocity > 1402 fps
If 124 = 1325 , then 115 velocity > 1429 fps
If 124 = 1350 , then 115 velocity > 1456 fps

"Free Recoil Energy" = ((Mbullet x Vbullet + 4700 x Mpropellant) ÷ 7000))² ÷ (64.34809711) ÷ (Mfirearm)
using data above with same "Notes & Assumptions":


Sorted List:

115gr 1145fps 7.45
115gr 1150fps 7.51
115gr 1155fps 7.57
115gr 1160fps 7.62
124gr 1090fps 7.70
124gr 1100fps 7.83
115gr 1180fps 7.85
124gr 1109fps 7.94
124gr 1110fps 7.95
115gr 1190fps 7.96
147gr 950fps 8.06
124gr 1125fps 8.14
115gr 1210fps 8.20
124gr 1130fps 8.20
124gr 1140fps 8.33
115gr 1225fps 8.37
124gr 1150fps 8.46
147gr 985fps 8.59
147gr 990fps 8.66
115gr 1250fps 8.67
115gr 1260fps 8.79
147gr 1000fps 8.82
124gr 1180fps 8.85
124gr 1188fps 8.95
124gr 1200fps 9.11
115gr 1287fps 9.13
124gr 1220fps 9.38
147gr 1050fps 9.61
115gr 1335fps 9.73
124gr 1250fps 9.79
124gr 1301fps 10.64
115gr 1415fps 10.78
147gr 1135fps 11.04


Raw List:

115gr
((115*1145+4700*4.6)/(7000))*((115*1145+4700*4.6)/(7000))/(64.34809711)/(1)
7.4528810692894531088479420539341
((115*1180+4700*4.6)/(7000))*((115*1180+4700*4.6)/(7000))/(64.34809711)/(1)
7.8493932385275306981880416336313
((115*1287+4700*4.6)/(7000))*((115*1287+4700*4.6)/(7000))/(64.34809711)/(1)
9.1253164245897557022061051259197
((115*1250+4700*4.6)/(7000))*((115*1250+4700*4.6)/(7000))/(64.34809711)/(1)
8.673245994456479765709936798852
((115*1210+4700*4.6)/(7000))*((115*1210+4700*4.6)/(7000))/(64.34809711)/(1)
8.1974397800558078269069442953257
((115*1190+4700*4.6)/(7000))*((115*1190+4700*4.6)/(7000))/(64.34809711)/(1)
7.9645698838681729005816433098199
((115*1335+4700*4.6)/(7000))*((115*1335+4700*4.6)/(7000))/(64.34809711)/(1)
9.7288990892328647879034414554987
((115*1225+4700*4.6)/(7000))*((115*1225+4700*4.6)/(7000))/(64.34809711)/(1)
8.3742942320145907279967554634426
((115*1415+4700*4.6)/(7000))*((115*1415+4700*4.6)/(7000))/(64.34809711)/(1)
10.777820264279762164982534943526
((115*1260+4700*4.6)/(7000))*((115*1260+4700*4.6)/(7000))/(64.34809711)/(1)
8.7942947193119398516924329523408
((115*1155+4700*4.6)/(7000))*((115*1155+4700*4.6)/(7000))/(64.34809711)/(1)
7.5651216748726863694470964914726
((115*1150+4700*4.6)/(7000))*((115*1150+4700*4.6)/(7000))/(64.34809711)/(1)
7.508896513518305134083431871323
((115*1160+4700*4.6)/(7000))*((115*1160+4700*4.6)/(7000))/(64.34809711)/(1)
7.6215565533525968149389359143829

124gr
((124*1090+4700*4.4)/(7000))*((124*1090+4700*4.4)/(7000))/(64.34809711)/(1)
7.7024003882508174781743593286474
((124*1150+4700*4.4)/(7000))*((124*1150+4700*4.4)/(7000))/(64.34809711)/(1)
8.4554007247282142700191749718869
((124*1200+4700*4.4)/(7000))*((124*1200+4700*4.4)/(7000))/(64.34809711)/(1)
9.1097219622099832922633695628568
((124*1188+4700*4.4)/(7000))*((124*1188+4700*4.4)/(7000))/(64.34809711)/(1)
8.9504611640452176554261587175602
((124*1125+4700*4.4)/(7000))*((124*1125+4700*4.4)/(7000))/(64.34809711)/(1)
8.1373836140841269278880486610396
((124*1100+4700*4.4)/(7000))*((124*1100+4700*4.4)/(7000))/(64.34809711)/(1)
7.8254621755045710317509030066173
((124*1220+4700*4.4)/(7000))*((124*1220+4700*4.4)/(7000))/(64.34809711)/(1)
9.3782776099149661206743057344409
((124*1140+4700*4.4)/(7000))*((124*1140+4700*4.4)/(7000))/(64.34809711)/(1)
8.327462399822835559647446768777
((124*1250+4700*4.4)/(7000))*((124*1250+4700*4.4)/(7000))/(64.34809711)/(1)
9.7884258879498780984834867795271
((124*1310+4700*4.4)/(7000))*((124*1310+4700*4.4)/(7000))/(64.34809711)/(1)
10.635055747338477900795845305456
((124*1180+4700*4.4)/(7000))*((124*1180+4700*4.4)/(7000))/(64.34809711)/(1)
8.8450675446263005892885810113848
((124*1109+4700*4.4)/(7000))*((124*1109+4700*4.4)/(7000))/(64.34809711)/(1)
7.9370516719713771317817688705891
((124*1130+4700*4.4)/(7000))*((124*1130+4700*4.4)/(7000))/(64.34809711)/(1)
8.200499382447781880634755470695
((124*1110+4700*4.4)/(7000))*((124*1110+4700*4.4)/(7000))/(64.34809711)/(1)
7.9494992702886496166864835896152

147gr
((147*950+4700*4.2)/(7000))*((147*950+4700*4.2)/(7000))/(64.34809711)/(1)
8.0573151854622107876656680827216
((147*1000+4700*4.2)/(7000))*((147*1000+4700*4.2)/(7000))/(64.34809711)/(1)
8.8175474564550025432756732532382
((147*1050+4700*4.2)/(7000))*((147*1050+4700*4.2)/(7000))/(64.34809711)/(1)
9.6120464750134706819460134926125
((147*990+4700*4.2)/(7000))*((147*990+4700*4.2)/(7000))/(64.34809711)/(1)
8.6627596624511900815088454136262
((147*985+4700*4.2)/(7000))*((147*985+4700*4.2)/(7000))/(64.34809711)/(1)
8.5858797666627689963713365198532
((147*1135+4700*4.2)/(7000))*((147*1135+4700*4.2)/(7000))/(64.34809711)/(1)
11.041336992226093816809060882578

-------

Just looking at the recoil impulses, clearly DT is the hottest stuff on the market.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

With that in mind, I actually kind of question the veracity of this hot .45 ACP load as a "defensive" round. I think it actually has too much power. The standard .45 ACP strikes a very nice balance of plenty of power, controlable recoil, minimal muzzle flash, and relatively low noise. This new load must buck and bark a good deal more. That, and regardless of pressure levels obtained, it is going to be damn hard on any 1911. Recoil velocity of the slide has nothing to do with pressures generated - it's purely a function of bullet weight and velocity. As we discovered over two decades ago with the hot 10mm auto, that old 1911 can only take so much.

I have never really considered the .45ACP a hard kicker, even with 165gr Cor Bon or 185 Gr Remington .45+P JHP's.

I am sure the round in question kicks considerably harder than standard 230gr @ 830fps, no doubt, but whether or not it's unmanageable is up to the individual shooter to determine. Odds are the recoil is similar to most .357 magnum loads.

I have the DT 147gr trail round in 9mm (36" of penetration in 10% gel!), and while the recoil is snappy, it is actually about the same as Federal 9BPLE 9mm+P+ 115gr JHP "police only" or +P Cor Bon ammo(I've tested all three one after another in past range sessions). It does however kick MUCH harder than standard pressure rounds. This stuff basically turns your 9mm into a "low recoil" .357 magnum. I plan on getting my HK P7 Mag-na-ported anyway.

And again, i am struck by the fact that the 9mm DT ammo absolutely matches the performance of the super hot DT .357 Sig, .40S&W, and .357 magnum ammunition- with only the 10mm and .45ACP out-performing it in any significant way. I chalk that up to the tremendous bonded core Gold Dot bullet used in all loadings.

[Jeff Higgins]

One of the niceties of the .45 ACP is that it is not a hard kicker; nor is there a big muzzle flash or loud, cracking report. One can shoot it indoors in low light without going deaf and blind, and it's easy to stay on target through the recoil. It sounds to me like the new load will negate all of that.

I'm a big believer in low intensity loads for defensive purposes just for all of those advantages. Light off a 125 grain .357 indoors, under low light, with no hearing protection sometime. You won't want to do that ever again, nor will you be able to (at least while seeing, hearing, and hitting an adversary) any time soon. The .45 ACP is much better suited to this, at least in its standard guise. That all goes away when we try to make a magnum out of it.

[m21sniper]

When i was in the Army, during MOUT exercises, i've been in the same room as an M-2 .50cal HMG blasting away into the night, blasted off belt after belt of 7.62mm, and been in a foxhole not 30 meters from an M-1 firing off it's 105mm gun (120mm wasn't fitted until the A1 models).

Pistol blast, report, and muzzle flash is something that i consider to be a total non-factor until you get into the big magnum loads. Especially when your adrenaline is pumping in the middle of a fire fight.

Of course, opinions vary.



Trust me, compared to that, the flash from your pistol is a non-event.



M193 US Military/NATO 5.56mm muzzle blast from M-4 carbine

[JTO]

In my experience, double tap ammo doesn't actually reach the velocities they advertise. I chronographed a couple of 10mm loads out of my G20 (the same gun Mike says he used to generate his muzzle velocities he advertises for the 10mm loadings). I saw chronograph speeds hundreds of fps slower than advertised. This chrono was used at our IDPA matches to check competitor's loads for compliance with power factor rules. So, it was a good chrono. I wrote McNett about these results and he never responded.


Troy

[m21sniper]

No one else gets the same results that you do. (that's not fair, there are a few derogatory comments floating around the net- but there are for all these companies)

There is extensive 3rd party chrono testing of DT ammo posted on Glock Talk and other forums.

One totally random example:

"Everything I've shot from Double Tap has performed great (10mm and .45ACP). When the site says that the 135gr. 10mm loads fly at 1600fps they are pretty much spot on. I chrono'd the same loads through a converted Glock 21 and a five shot test group averaged 1580 fps., so the DT numbers are not just marketing hype."
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=327658

Buffalo Bore and Cor Bon all claim similar velocities, but often use inferior bullet designs. Buffalo Bore costs a LOT more money too.

[JTO]

I trust my own data more than someone trying to sell me something. My $0.02.
Troy

[m21sniper]

There are numerous 3rd party independent chrono results on numerous forums by numerous posters testing numerous DT (and other) loads, as well as numerous gelatin tests.

Just looking at the recoil impulses alone for their 9mm loads confirm that it is smoking hot ammunition.

If you really think all that is propaganda....

At any rate, i have no affiliation, and you and everyone else are most certainly entitled to your opinions.